Episode 39: Logical Progression: Part I with Steve Bechtel

Honorary Cohost Steve Bechtel has a new book out: "Logical Progression: Using Non Linear Periodization for Year Round Climbing Performance."  If you write your own training plans, and still have a hard time sticking to your plan, this is the book for you.  Steve outlines a deceptively simple way of organizing your training that fits nicely into real lives - something most of us desperately need.  

$24.30

Buy on Amazon

Part II of this post is coming very soon.  It will be a Q & A with Steve that is a great example of what you could get if you decide to become a patron.  For as little as $1 per month, you'll get more content - like Q & A's with the guests, tips from the pros, and conversations with the team.

You can always find Steve at: www.climbstrong.com

*If you buy the book through our Amazon link, we get a small kickback, and it doesn't increase your cost at all!  An easy way to help us out!**

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:31

What's up everybody? I am your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 39 of The Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Before we jump into this thing, I've got a little business to take care of. So I'm going to get right into that. First off, we now have 79 reviews. We are well on our way to our goal of 100 iTunes reviews in 2017. So thank you guys for keeping those coming. I appreciate it. We also have 99 five-star ratings and one four-star rating and our four-star rating left us a review. So I'd like to read that one because I think he's right actually. He says...titles it  "Good but could be better". He goes by the name of Cracked Nugget, he or she, I guess, and says,  "Some real gems in this thing, but it could be improved. I love the utilitarian feel focus of the show. But Kris' rambling is sometimes insufferable and distracting. He's good at focusing on interesting directions for the interview, but could do a better job at listening to his guests." Thanks, Cracked Nugget. I appreciate the feedback. And I agree it could definitely be better. I think it could always be better. And much to your chagrin, I'm sure I'm ironically going to ramble a little more in this intro than I have been lately, just because we have lots of business coming. So thanks for the feedback again. I really really appreciate it you guys.  Go leave ratings and reviews that helps us a ton. On to the next ramble here. I will be speaking at the Midwest Training For Climbing Conference that will be coming up at Adventure Rock Milwaukee on August 17 through the 19th this summer, and I'll be joining Arno Ilgner, Justin Sjong and Steve Bechtel, all guests who've been on the podcast and we'll all be running workshops and giving presentations. So if you really want to dig into training for climbing, you should definitely consider coming out to Milwaukee for this event. You can find out more details at midwesttcc.com. And I know they'll be posting more details up soon. Right that site is pretty new right now. So go check that out. Also coming up. This July, I will be at the International Climbers Festival here in my new hometown of Lander and I'll be moderating hosting a panel discussion with Arno Ilgner, Steve Bechtel and Charlie Manganiello, Eric Horst and Neely Quinn on Thursday, July 13, from 3 to 5 at the Lander Bake Shop. So if you guys are interested in jumping into that conversation, you should definitely come out to the International Climbers Festival. It's a ton of fun. It's a great weekend. Come on out and see us and let me know if you're in town. Okay, our last bit of business here, you might have noticed that this Episode is Part 1. That's because you'll be getting a Part 2 very, very soon that is essentially a question and answer. I let our Facebook community know that I was going to be talking to Steve about his new book. And they had some really great questions that I posed to Steve. And that episode is going to be an example of what you'll get if you become a patron. We're going to have patron-only episodes pretty soon and those will be short question and answers and some other ideas that we have. But this is a good example of it. So if you've been considering becoming a patron, now's a good time, and you can do that at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Or you can go to our site, click on the podcast tab and it's pretty easy to find there. And for as little as a dollar a month, you can get some extra episodes every month. So think about that. And all right, let's jump into this talk with Steve Bechtel. He's got a new book out called Logical Progression: Using Nonlinear Periodization For Year Round Climbing Performance. And you can find the book on his site climbstrong.com. You can also get it on Amazon. And if you go to our site and click on the post for this podcast, we have links to the book and those links do help us out a little bit. They give us a small kickback from Amazon, it does not increase your price at all. So that helps us out a little if you're going to buy the book if you do it through there. All right

Steve Bechtel  05:16

And I don't want my athletes to have to rebuild strength every year. I want them to build on top of their previous levels of strength and then in season they can maintain that level.

Steve Bechtel  05:39

Moving around, looking for things that aren't wet

Kris Hampton  05:45

that's a good thing to be looking for right now.

Steve Bechtel  05:47

Yeah, I just kind of get like forced into closer and closer to the center of the cave it seems. And then yesterday, like the last possible thing was also wet. So I think I'm gonna start golfing.

Kris Hampton  06:04

That's a good plan, except for golf courses are really wet too right now I think. 

Steve Bechtel  06:08

This sucks. The pool?. Maybe I'll start swimming. 

Kris Hampton  06:12

Yeah, swimming is good when it's wet. Okay, first off, I had a, I had a chance to read the book. And it's a super, super easy read, which I think is somewhat lacking generally and training books. And, and that means a lot to me being able to sit down and read it and digest it without, you know, face palming and having to get up and walk away and readjust. 

Steve Bechtel  06:43

Right.

Kris Hampton  06:44

 So I think that's a good thing about it, for sure. So good job there. And the layout is great. Kian did the layout, is that right? 

Steve Bechtel  06:55

Yeah, Kian Stewart. 

Kris Hampton  06:56

Okay. Yeah, it looks great. So you guys did a good job on this thing. And I'm, I'm stoked that it's out there. Let's just jump into what exactly is nonlinear periodization?

Steve Bechtel  07:10

Well, you know, it's, it's simple. It's simply a way of organizing training. And what's what is, what's fascinating to me is, is our inclination to try to make a thing more complicated than it is, yeah. And the way that that we normally start, say, you start running or weight training or whatever, it or just rock climbing, you just go do the thing. And you get a little better, and you get a little better, and you get a little better. And then when you stop improving, you start to question methods and things like that and then the normal thing is to try to lift heavier, run further, or just add more days of training and that might work for a little while, but then most people get to, like this intermediate level of training where, where they, they need to cycle, a recovery weekend there or, or, you know, focus a little more on bouldering for a few weeks or endurance for a few weeks, and then they can still move forward. But when you when you get to like full-blown, classical periodisation, that's a very, it's a very advanced way of programming. It's very restrictive. And and my contention is that it doesn't really work all that well for a sport like climbing. And so when we look at periodization, it's it's a way of organizing your training to stimulate specific adaptations over time. So the classical way of organizing stuff is to have these these macro cycles of strength or power or endurance and that was all built around preparing weightlifters for for competition, right. And so it's an easy to understand model, it makes logical sense. But it doesn't really apply to a sport like climbing.

Kris Hampton  09:25

Because it's a skill sport.That you're...

Steve Bechtel  09:27

Exactly and so if you have a sport that only requires one skill, or or one, one set of skills, or if you have a sport that only requires one energy system, classical periodisation works very, very well. And so let's talk about energy systems just for a second. We have we have three energy systems that we depend on for for sporting activity. And, you know, there's this anaerobic alactic, up to 10 seconds, power and strength. We have anaerobic lactic, which is the 10, you know, roughly 10 seconds to 90 seconds. And then we have the oxidative or aerobic system, which is beyond 90 seconds. And although each of those energy systems is is being used at all times, most sports will be very dependent on one, like weightlifting, all alactic. You know, when you're in a weightlifting competition, your competition performances, you know, three seconds

Kris Hampton  10:36

Right.

Steve Bechtel  10:37

 If you're in a marathon, you're almost completely aerobic.

Kris Hampton  10:41

Right.

Steve Bechtel  10:42

 And so you whether I'm setting up to move towards endurance or move towards strength, I only have to worry about performing in one of those. Now, I always say that climbing is the coolest sport in the world. And one of the things that's really cool about it is that we have to use all three of those energy systems at all times.

Kris Hampton  11:05

Right

Steve Bechtel  11:06

 Even even, you know, if we're a boulderer that those things all come into play. And so, training in a way to maximize just one energy system takes away from your development of the other two. And so there are a few ways of solving that problem. But regular classical periodisation, where you train, you know, a bunch of endurance, and then a bunch of power, and then a bunch of strength over a three month period, you know, in a linear or progressive way, leaves you lacking in those other in those other facets by the time we get to performance time.

Kris Hampton  11:44

 Right. 

Steve Bechtel  11:46

The other thing is, I like to climb well, more than three times a year. And, and that's, that was the thing, I think that drove me to research this stuff, was the fact that, you know, I was very successful in peaking with with a regular periodization plan for several years. But it would be like, two weeks of pretty good performance, and then I'd go flat again.

Kris Hampton  12:09

Right. And with climbing, you can't necessarily plan on that with the weather. And, you know, who knows your your, you know, what you're determining is where your peak is going to be might end up being bad weather and then you're screwed. 

Steve Bechtel  12:24

Yep. 

Kris Hampton  12:25

And especially mentally, you're screwed. I think a lot of people believe they're peaking for a specific week, and then they're the weather's bad. And they're like up, you know, back to training, I might as well just forget it. 

Steve Bechtel  12:37

Yeah. And, and I think that that's the I mean, we still there, you know, you're clearly going to peak. But what we want and and you know, what you and I've talked about before, is we want their peak to be driven by the sport and by peaking their skills, their arousal levels, everything else. And the training should happen in the background to prepare them for this. And I think one of the things, one of the mistakes that we make is going is thinking of climbing as purely strength or a purely power or a purely physical sport, when really you've got to marry together all of this crazy stuff to really have an optimal performance.

Kris Hampton  13:19

Right. Right. And so much skill.

Steve Bechtel  13:22

 Yes. 

Kris Hampton  13:22

Like you were saying

Steve Bechtel  13:23

Yeah, and so if we can go back and think, you know, I'm going to work skill, I'm going to work practice. It's crazy, you get somebody that climbs really well say somebody that's climbing 5.13, 5.14, and you say, you know, what you need to do is really, really dial in your technique. They're gonna, you know, 9 out of 10 of them are going to be offended.

Kris Hampton  13:48

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Steve Bechtel  13:49

I'm an expert. You know, I'm, I've got this really figured out.

Kris Hampton  13:52

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  13:52

 But but I think that if we can come up with a mental picture for these athletes, that their physical preparation, preparation has to happen at all times. And then they can go out to the crag and ramp up for specific projects or build up to their onsights. Where they can, can depend on their skills, more than like, on a hangboard where they're like, you know, I'm peeking on the hangboard. Like so what maybe, you know, you're, you can be super strong on the headboard and climb really bad.

Kris Hampton  14:29

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And vice versa. 

Steve Bechtel  14:31

Yep.

Kris Hampton  14:31

 You know, I've definitely had clients and training partners who I perform better on the hangboard than they do. But then we go outside and they can hold holds that I can't even fathom, you know, so it doesn't always translate over. But so, linear periodization is essentially working one energy system at a time and then expecting them you know, all to come together.

Steve Bechtel  14:59

Well or not even needing them to come together like if you're a marathoner, they, you know, you train weights....

Kris Hampton  15:06

Just to build up to...

Steve Bechtel  15:07

To get some strength....

Steve Bechtel  15:09

 But then you can let strength fade. 

Kris Hampton  15:09

Right.

Kris Hampton  15:11

Right.

Steve Bechtel  15:11

 And so when we look at the adaptation, persistence of, of any facet of your, of your physical physicality, like strength, if you build strength, and then you stop doing it, within about 10 days, you're your max numbers start to drop.

Kris Hampton  15:29

Right

Steve Bechtel  15:30

And so if I hang board for 4 weeks, and then you know, begin, then because it's the end of January, I switch to bouldering. And then because it's the end of February, I stretch, switch to 4x4s, there's a few things that I'm messing up, but one of the primary ones is that we're losing that adaptation, the strength starts to drop off. And I don't want my athletes to have to rebuild strength every year. I want them to build on top of their previous levels of strength. And then in season, they can maintain that level. But going back to the seasonal stuff, if we take and, you know, hold to a hard calendar that says it's only 4 weeks, and then we're moving on. Well, you know, a really good athlete has 60 to 70% adherence to their training plan. 

Kris Hampton  16:22

Right.

Steve Bechtel  16:22

 And I think if if we could get our athletes and the people that listen to this podcast to think in terms of the adaptation to a stimulus, requiring, you know, X number of, of sessions, rather than fitting into the January calendar, I think it's really a good thing. And what I mean there is like to see a full power adaptation might take 14 to 16 training sessions, and a young person might be able to do 3 sessions a week. And so that athlete might see, in 5 weeks full adaptation to that cycle.

Kris Hampton  17:01

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  17:02

 An older guy might only be able to train super hard power once every five days. And so if he's going to have to do 14 sessions, his power adaptation might be three months long before he completely taps that out.

Kris Hampton  17:15

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  17:16

 And so if we get stuck in the calendar, instead of thinking of how the body adapts, we kind of get screwed up. And so this is kind of where the nonlinear stuff, and particularly the this style that I'm promoting here, can solve one of these problems. And so when we go and define nonlinear training, instead of saying, we're going to train strength in January, power in February, endurance in March, we're going to break that down to smaller cycles, where we're going to train strength for one session, then rest a couple of days, train power for one session, rest a couple of days, then train your energy system. And then we just cycle through that, regardless of what the calendar says. So if you get two days of training a week, you would do strength and then power. And then the next week, you'd start with energy system development. Somebody like the young guy we just talked about, he might be training five sessions a week, so he'd be getting a couple of each session in.

Kris Hampton  18:23

Yep. 

Steve Bechtel  18:26

The The main thing there is figuring out how frequently you need to stimulate the organism to see those improvements, and then setting up your training accordingly. Unfortunately, most people have all this other life stuff that goes on the...

Kris Hampton  18:45

Sure

Steve Bechtel  18:46

That limits their training time. 

Kris Hampton  18:49

Yep.

Steve Bechtel  18:49

 And, and that's where that's where we try to make this adaptable. Because if you are a pro athlete, you can you can run everything based on on what you're doing to to improve your sport. But if you're a parent, and you have a job, and you...

Kris Hampton  19:06

Right, which 99% of us are. 

Steve Bechtel  19:09

And so yeah, so then what we want to do is come up with a program that they can actually stick to. Because, boy, the feedback is you start it, you start a restrictive program, you don't follow the restrictive program. And so your automatic feedback is you suck. 

Kris Hampton  19:22

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  19:23

And and that's not really the case. It's just that your program wasn't well thought out in advance to fit with the realities of your life.

Kris Hampton  19:30

Mm hmm. Yeah. So in this plan, are you ever working to energy systems or two facets of your training in one session? Are there strength components mixed in with the power endurance sessions or...?

Steve Bechtel  19:51

Um not really and, and the difficulty there. Not that not that you shouldn't do that ever But the difficulty with this is, if we're trying to keep on a cycle of this nonlinear stuff, switching between these energy systems, if we put, say energy system work at the end of a strength session, like like people like to do occasionally. And we do the strength session on Monday, then we do power on Wednesday, then we do regular energy system work on Friday, we may be overtraining that system. And then not not quite training the strength enough. And so I laid out a couple of different strategies for this, but but one of the things that, that's a great starting place for the athlete is just to say this is purely a strength workout. This is purely an energy system workout. And although we just through the habit of climbing, for example, in the energy system stuff, we're doing, you know, several boulder problems in a row, in which case, we are having a little bit of power stimulus, a little bit of strength stimulus. And so all the climbing we do, does require all those things to some degree, but we really do want to focus focus just on one per session.

Kris Hampton  21:10

Right, right. And what about the people who have, you know, for instance, one, maybe two days every week, should they also rotate through these different energy systems? Or would it be better to combine them.

Steve Bechtel  21:26

It might be better to combine them if you're that limited, if you're that limited. And but but the thing that we always want to default to, is to go back to what is our adaptation potential. And you would say, I need to keep training strength and power all the time. And then when I get an occasional extra day of the week, then I could do some endurance work in. If you've only got two days a week to train, your, your performance potential is also diminished. 

Kris Hampton  21:57

Sure, sure

Steve Bechtel  21:58

 So so then you go, Okay, well, really, I would take take that athlete back and say, okay, what do you really want to get done this season? Because then we're gonna super focus on that one thing.

Kris Hampton  22:09

Yep, totally.

Steve Bechtel  22:11

But yeah, it becomes it becomes problematic. And you've seen it, I'm sure through your coaching where, you know, people give you these, like, seemingly impossible problems there.

Kris Hampton  22:20

Oh, yeah. All the time.

Steve Bechtel  22:21

I want to do The Nose in a day but I only have one hour a month to train.

Kris Hampton  22:24

 Right. Yeah. I hear that pretty often. 

Steve Bechtel  22:27

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  22:29

 But, you know, I think it's great to dream big. And I think you need these intermediate markers along the way. And I think your system sets up to have those intermediate markers really well. Now...go ahead.

Steve Bechtel  22:46

 Oh, no, go ahead. 

Kris Hampton  22:48

With working in your outdoor climbing into your training, since in this system, you're sort of expecting to perform at a relatively high level year round. How do you go about adding that in?

Steve Bechtel  23:07

Yeah, so there's a couple of different ways you can you can run your outdoor climbing separately.

Kris Hampton  23:13

Or you think of it as a total separate entity.

Steve Bechtel  23:16

Yep. And think about your training as simply preparation to that. I want to be physically ready for climbing. And I want to be ready to do whatever I've got going out there. 

Kris Hampton  23:25

Right.

Steve Bechtel  23:26

 And I think that's a really good way to do it. You can also though, integrate it and say, okay, I'm going outside, and today is a strength day. So I'm going to work on projects that are you know, limit level, so I'm going to try...

Kris Hampton  23:40

 Really hard moves...

Steve Bechtel  23:41

 Yeah and then the power day, we would go bouldering. And then the energy system day, we would do like...

Kris Hampton  23:47

 Volume

Steve Bechtel  23:47

Yeah, whatever power endurance routes, whatever it is. And so you can do it that way. I prefer to separate them and say, okay, we're gonna do this training in the background. You you always go to the gym, Tuesdays and Thursdays after work. And then on the weekends, you get to climb. And like the worst thing is like, you get to the crag and you're, you know, you're there with your, you know, your significant other and she's like, oh, yeah, it's a volume day so I just want to do tons of pitches, and you're like aw, I was gonna send my project today, you know, but instead you're out doing like, dozens of pitches and, and so unless you can coordinate it really well with partners, I find it's, it's much better to say, okay, I'm gonna be following my redpoint pyramid or I'm going to be working my project or whatever. And then let the let the training kind of work separately than that.

Kris Hampton  24:38

Yep. What if there are people who are outside all the time, you know, if they live in an area where they don't necessarily have access to training. For instance, I have a couple who travels all the time and right now they're living in the Red River Gorge. So they don't get to the gym very often. Once a week at most, and they have TRX where they're living and a hangboard and that's really it. So we do schedule their outdoor days as training days pretty often. How would you go about that? Would you..? 

Steve Bechtel  25:18

I'd say I'd say, and I've run into that with a lot of athletes. They...

Kris Hampton  25:24

 More and more are traveling all the time, ya know, sprinter life.

Steve Bechtel  25:27

And I would just say number one, that they're, they're a burden on our society and they should stop this. 

Kris Hampton  25:35

Hahaha

Steve Bechtel  25:35

And um...no I think it's I think it's, it's a challenge for them. But you know we we say, Oh, yeah, well, you know, the classic is, if you if you've ever followed like a training thread on Mountain Project or something, there's, there's always this douchebag it's probably the same guy every time. But there's always somebody that says...

Kris Hampton  25:58

 Different names. 

Kris Hampton  25:59

 Yeah.

Steve Bechtel  25:59

Yeah.They'll say, Oh, yeah, all you need to do is just climb, right? Or the you know, it, you know, degrades to Oh, well, you should just do 12 ounce curls, and, you know, whatever else. But yeah, but the just climbing is great, you know, I would love to just climb, but training is about systemising adaptation, so that it actually happens faster, you will adapt faster by training. And yes, just climbing is really great but if you can take your Red River Gorge couple, and you say, all right, this month, yeah, you're just climbing but I want to, I want you to work on specific facets of your training. And maybe if you were going to set it up in a nonlinear way, you would say, okay, we're going to spend one day working just, you know, pure endurance stuff. You're going to back off, you know, full letter grade from your max, and I want you to try to get 10 pitches in. Then we'll have one day where you go and you're working the cruxes of a 5.14 trying to get get that power and the strength up. And then another day, they may be just redpointing like redpointing close to their limit on something that they might actually send. And so then we are getting three different stimuli there. And we're keeping that athlete from going stale.

Steve Bechtel  27:13

Because one of the biggest things we see with redpoint-only mentality is that they they lose the work capacity. Pretty soon you do two warm ups, and then you do burns on your project... 

Kris Hampton  27:24

And then you're done.

Steve Bechtel  27:24

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  27:25

Its all you've got.

Steve Bechtel  27:25

 And, and when you're on a project, the reason that most of us send isn't that we're getting fitter and fitter and fitter.

Kris Hampton  27:31

 Right, it's that we're just learning the route. 

Steve Bechtel  27:33

Yeah, we're learning and learning learning, our skills are getting better, we're getting more efficient, and therefore your physical capacity is diminishing. And so when you when you go to that, you know, these second tier routes, you know, that are a little bit easier and actually get some mileage in, is going to improve. And so as I'm sure they're probably already on that sort of program, but yeah, then when it's like, oh, yeah, I could do better training. If I had a gym, I could I could see better improvements, right? It's it's a trade off you you can you can spend part of the season on the road, part of the season in the gym.

Kris Hampton  28:09

Yeah, yeah. And I think something we do that I think is pretty important, with that couple specifically, and with some other folks that I work with, I look at their outdoor days, more as practice than as training and I try to focus their practice on specific things. You know, this couple, we're just starting to really dig into the redpoint process. So it's not so much about redpointing the route as it is learning the process that you go through and what steps you take next, you know, to have an efficient redpoint process on a on a specific route. So I think by separating those two things, practice versus training, then I can put them onto their redpoint days with the idea of practice, and then volume days with the idea of training. 

Steve Bechtel  29:01

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  29:02

So so they tend to approach it a little different, I think, which i think i think that's important for them to do.

Steve Bechtel  29:07

For sure. I think that that success, like like, sending is is is trying to succeed and trying to succeed. And if we're always doing it, we get worse at the, at the pieces. A really good example of like, just redpointing all the time is the NFL. I mean, imagine if all they did was play NFL games.

Kris Hampton  29:30

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  29:30

Like it would, you know, they would first suck at most of the parts of the game, and they'd also be destroyed by it. And, and so, I think that having a mind toward that is is really important when when you're looking at it and having somebody to talk to, you know, a coach becomes an essential part of improvement. And, and that's an interesting it's an interesting segue into like, what coaching is like. There's all this, you know, we're almost all self-coached and you, you do the activity and you think about the performance, and then you, you know, then you go back and do the activity and think about the performance, but having better feedback. And an honest assessment of the performance is sort of this next step. Because when we're just thinking about it, we're, we were only feeling.

Kris Hampton  29:45

Right.

Steve Bechtel  29:51

 But then if you like, it seems vain to shoot video, but if you video yourself climbing, or have a friend shoot it, and you watch that video, not only do we learn better, by by rewatching that, but we get a sense of sight of what it looks like..

Kris Hampton  30:46

Right

Steve Bechtel  30:46

When you're climbing....

Kris Hampton  30:46

and it always looks different than we think it does.

Steve Bechtel  30:49

I had no idea my feet were flopping all over the place like that.

Kris Hampton  30:52

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  30:53

And you can also listen to it. And it's really interesting to hear, when people start to get stressed, you know, they start breathing hard...

Kris Hampton  31:01

Or their breathing changes

Steve Bechtel  31:02

And, you know, they might start doing the karate chop sounds and stuff. And although there is a there's a time for that, they might be doing it emotionally rather than because of the physical reason. 

Kris Hampton  31:12

Right. Right. 

Steve Bechtel  31:13

And so then the third layer, you know, beyond like, feeling it at the top, you know, and then looking at and hearing what you're doing, like, by by self assessment on video, is to have another person look at it and be like, boy, you, you know, you rested too long at that place, or, you know, the second you get to the crux, you know, all of a sudden, everything goes tight, and you look like you're panicking, and that's that's that real value, you know. The the coach's job is to watch, you know, and to, and to see what their what patterns are and to try to break those patterns. And, and so like, teaching them about redpointing, and you know, when to have easy days and making sure that you, you know, don't do the same stupid stuff over and over. I mean, that's the that's the whole game.

Kris Hampton  31:58

Yeah. And I think you're right, I think that, you know, the feedback from a coach is super important. And there are a lot of different forms that can come in. And one of the things we've been working on a lot is cultivating this self awareness and how to improve your self awareness through drills and different exercises. And, and I think that's been pretty big. But you're right, video is still a huge thing, and I have our clients send us video all the time. And hopefully take videos of themselves and be okay with that. A lot of them don't like to, like you said, it seems a little vain. But, but I do think that's the definite way to go is to look at video and if you have something like Coach's Eye, where you can slow it down and scroll back and forth on the video that makes it even nicer or compare with you know, with someone else doing a problem or whatever. 

Steve Bechtel  32:57

Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's, it's interesting, because, um, I think that there's, there's like this unwillingness to, to really, truly look at at yourself. And that's where a lot of people get stuck. They, you know, they they get to well, I mean, one of the main things I try to break through with athletes is, is deciding how, you know how well you can climb, like, people will just go like, Oh, yeah, they'll they'll refer to things as hard or easy.

Kris Hampton  33:28

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  33:29

They'll be like, oh, that route is hard. That route is easy. And right there, you're giving yourself this, this fixed set of rules to fight against, or you decide that you're a 13a climber and you're not a 14a climber. It's like, Well, why, like who? Who made that decision? And how do you know that? And are you only climbing 13a, because you decided to only climb 13a?

Kris Hampton  33:51

Right, right, and those grades are subjective to begin with

Steve Bechtel  33:55

Right, so well, and one of the things I'll tell my athletes is like, the difference between a like a 12c and a 13a can be one hold. 

Kris Hampton  34:03

Yeah, absolutely. 

Steve Bechtel  34:04

And you know, we have a ton of like 12c climbers that can do V5 and then we've got a ton of 5.13s that the hardest move on them is V3. 

Kris Hampton  34:13

Yep.

Steve Bechtel  34:13

 And so as soon as they can get past their head, they you know, they blow the doors off the thing but but it's it's interesting. There's a I can't remember who it was it might have been Ben Bruno or somebody that said, if you if you think an exercise is going to hurt you, it probably will. 

Kris Hampton  34:34

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  34:35

And and it's really it's really true with with this climbing too. Like if you think you can't do a climb, like pick something else until you think you can do that route.

Kris Hampton  34:47

Yeah, I think having the belief is the biggest first crux that most people have to go through.

Steve Bechtel  34:53

Yeah. And, and, and it's and and what's what's interesting too, is you've probably seen these people that are always preparing.

Kris Hampton  35:02

 Right. 

Steve Bechtel  35:03

We will see these athletes that are always, you know, like, I'm not quite there, I'm not quite there and months and months and months go by of like getting ready and fixing to try it. And I'm thinking about getting out there. And maybe I'll look at that route, you know? And then you have these people that just like, put their boots down and start trying something.

Kris Hampton  35:21

Yeah. And I think it's a lot like being a parent. You know, here's so many people. Oh, we're waiting until the right time, you know, not ready to be a parent yet. And I don't know if you ever are actually ready. You just, you just rise to the occasion when it presents itself, because you have to.

Steve Bechtel  35:37

Right. You know, yeah, that's the ultimate, ultimate change is like, you know, the baby arrives and all of a sudden, you've got to got to do something about it. 

Kris Hampton  35:45

Right.

Steve Bechtel  35:45

 That's, and that's one of the main things that we we deal with anymore, is that change psychology and how we, how you can help people to make changes because everybody knows how to eat well, and what they need to do to train. I mean, but they're not going to do it. And that's, and that's the thing is like, we've got to change their their sense of priorities, you know, from, from, like, my priority is drinking a glass of wine at night, and then watching three episodes of, you know, whatever TV to my priority is sending hard routes. And,and it's....

Kris Hampton  36:21

My priority is both. 

Kris Hampton  36:22

Yeah. Haha that's right.

Steve Bechtel  36:24

Yeah, well, that's the fascinating thing, right? Priority. I love the word, 

Kris Hampton  36:28

Right. Singular. 

Steve Bechtel  36:28

Because, yeah, it is singular. It wasn't until like, the 1970s, that they started pluralizing it. Priority, the root of priority is the one thing.

Kris Hampton  36:29

Right.

Steve Bechtel  36:30

 Which is such a powerful thing. But when people start talking about having priorities, it's like, you know, it's like having multiple wives or something like that shit just isn't natural.

Kris Hampton  36:48

Right. So how do you think this nonlinear periodization plays into the psychology of the people that you're working with?

Steve Bechtel  36:58

Well, the, the first thing is breaking down the barrier of what a successful training program looks like, okay? Because, you know, again, if I give them a really structured program that says, You need to do this on Monday, this on Wednesday, this on Friday, and, you know, you need to progress these things. And they, they're, you know, they get busy, they have a soccer game, whatever else, they start to feel like they're not succeeding. And right, you're having to make too many compromises in the training program, which is actually really true. You probably get as many questions from athletes, like, hey, if I do this, and this and this, and I change and change and change this program, what do you think, and all of a sudden, you've got a thing that doesn't look like the original at all.

Kris Hampton  37:46

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  37:47

 And, and then, you know, like, one, you can't tell them, it's gonna work, and two, that athlete isn't going to get the results that they're expecting that, you know, they that they feel like they want. And so with our program, we can say, look, by cycling between these things, the strength and the power, the endurance aren't going to come as quickly as, as they would, if you just, you know, if you only hangboard, your fingers are going to get ungodly strong, but all these other things will suffer. And so if we, if we work on all of these things at once, over over a longer cycle, you know, we're talking three to four months of build up on some of these things. We'll, we'll see a more successful program. And the athlete, even though they only got to train two days this week, or they got a really great weekend, they trained five days, they're gonna still be able to see progress. And so one of the one of the big warnings we'll give them or one of these things will urge them to do is to make sure that they're, they're tracking their progress, they're paying attention to what's happening. Because if you do like that integrated strength day, and then you do a power one and an endurance when it may be 12 or 14 days before you get back to that session.

Kris Hampton  38:58

Right.

Steve Bechtel  38:59

 What did you do last time? You know, how was it? And then let's, how can we progress, we've got to make sure that we're seeing improvements there. And, and that's, that's one of these things, if they can progress over the course of eight sessions, you know, you know, strength session once a week, you know, 8-10 weeks long, then we we have these these numbers that show us that that athlete is actually stronger, and they're probably going to perform better outside. If you think you're stronger, you're stronger. And that's a that's a really important...

Kris Hampton  39:30

Yep, I do. I think that is really important that as long as they believe it, and they believe that it's working, and then compliance goes up. 

Steve Bechtel  39:39

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  39:39

 And if it's easy for them to fit into their lives, which I think this sort of program really is. And you know, a lot of what we do isn't exactly what you would call a nonlinear but it's similar in a lot of ways and I think it's something we've come across just through throwing out things that don't work and and trying to get more compliance because in my mind, that's one of the most important things is, it needs to be a plan that the climber is going to do.

Steve Bechtel  40:10

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  40:11

You know, and when people start to miss workouts, they if it's a, if it's a plan that looks like a funnel, like you, you know, you're going to this one very specific point, and they miss a day, then they start thinking, you know, okay, well, I'm already off. So it's not gonna matter if I just skip this day, too.

Steve Bechtel  40:31

 Right.

Kris Hampton  40:32

You know, and they start to let little excuses get in the way.

Steve Bechtel  40:34

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  40:35

So, so I do think in that respect, having this plan that doesn't look so much like a funnel.

Steve Bechtel  40:41

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  40:41

That, that it makes a lot more sense for people who have real lives.

Steve Bechtel  40:45

Yeah. And it lets them keep their performance focused on on the crag. Like, one of the things I just hate is, is this idea of like, either, like the performance happens in the gym, or that I just have to get tired. And that's going to indicate a really great training session. 

Kris Hampton  41:05

Oh, sure.

Steve Bechtel  41:06

 You know, and so, and that happens if people miss a workout, you'll have that they go harde, like, yeah, they'll be like, well just do both of them on Friday. 

Kris Hampton  41:12

Right.

Steve Bechtel  41:13

 Yeah. And which is, which is really crazy. Like, if you if you like, missed a meal. And you're like, well, that's okay, Im just going to eat two meals at dinner, right?

Kris Hampton  41:20

Haha right.

Steve Bechtel  41:21

 But, but that's what that's what the mentality is. The other mentality of just like, I missed a workout, so I'm off my plan, therefore, I suck. I heard a great analogy there, which was like, you know, you drop your iPhone, and you're like, darn I dropped that phone. It's like aww shit, I guess I'll just keep dropping it.

Kris Hampton  41:37

Yeah. Or I'll just, I'll leave it there. 

Steve Bechtel  41:38

Yeah, I know. You'd be like, okay, whoops, I blew it. I better be more careful with it next time. Yeah, maybe buy a case for it. Maybe you, you know, put a lanyard on your neck.

Kris Hampton  41:48

 Yeah, yeah.

Steve Bechtel  41:48

 But but that's, um, but that's one of the things is like, errors happen in training. And, and people get sick. And, you know, they have vacations and whatever else. And so when when we program on four week cycles, you get 13 four week cycles a year. 

Kris Hampton  42:06

Okay.

Steve Bechtel  42:06

 And so, I will just say one of those entire four week cycles is out the window, because of illness, travel or demotivation or whatever. And so then, when you're planning out a whole year for an athlete, if you start with 12 four week cycles, and you say, like, you look, we've got a, we have a whole month to play with here, because you're not going to make it, you know, through with 100% compliance. It's a little load off their shoulders if they do have a sick kid or a work trip or something like that.

Kris Hampton  42:37

Right. Right. So what do you know, if you're doing these four week cycles, how does one four week cycle differ from the next?

Steve Bechtel  42:45

Well, it depends on the on the type of program that we're on. And and, you know, although...

Kris Hampton  42:50

 In your program

Steve Bechtel  42:51

 Yeah, so in Logical Progression, the way we're advocating that athletes handle that is to spend three weeks of really pushing it on the on the, you know, going forward on every single workout, trying to go really hard. And then to back off for a week and take, you know, take a nice, easy week. The easiest thing in the world is to look at your total training volume, and cut it in half. And everybody just freaks out about that. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna lose it. I'm gonna lose it.

Kris Hampton  43:22

 Yep.

Steve Bechtel  43:23

 But, but the analogy that we use, and the example that we use is sleeping, like, you can imagine how efficient you could be if like, you could just stay awake 24 hours a day, 

Kris Hampton  43:34

Right. I try, sometimes.

Steve Bechtel  43:36

Yeah right. If you like Schwarzenegger says like, you need eight hours a day, we need to learn to sleep faster. But, but But yeah, if you if you didn't have to take that recovery, you would, you would think, oh, man, I could get so much more done. I could just work. I can work from, you know, at the convenience store from midnight to 8am and then I have all day long to climb and...

Kris Hampton  44:00

Right.

Steve Bechtel  44:01

 But you're gonna kill yourself. And this is the same thing that's 

Kris Hampton  44:03

It's all going to suffer.

Steve Bechtel  44:05

It's like, if you don't give your body time to recover, it will take it. 

Kris Hampton  44:08

Yep. 

Steve Bechtel  44:09

And three things happen if we if we don't back off. It's like injury, illness or staleness. So you're gonna you're gonna hurt a finger. Because you overtrained, you are going to get sick because your your immune system really uses the same recovery modes that your athletics do. Or you're gonna get burned out. You just gonna get tired of it and 

Kris Hampton  44:33

Right.

Steve Bechtel  44:33

 And and it's not you so much is your body like tricking you into being burned out. And it's not that you hate climbing, it's just that your body is a jerk and it'll teach you to hate climbing because because you've been pushing too hard.

Kris Hampton  44:45

It views it as a threat at that point. 

Steve Bechtel  44:47

Yeah, good job staying where you're at.

Steve Bechtel  44:47

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, this, it's it goes back to these like they've known it for years, these classical distributions of of recovery, and even the Greeks like years ago, they talked about the the gladiators hardening. They hardened for two weeks, and then they have two weeks of rest. And then they would harden for two weeks. And so that's like two on two off. But you know that taking some kind of recovery cycle is is really critical. And if you, if you're a person that doesn't think you need those cycles, you're not performing at any kind of level. And so if you've been at the same level, and you're performing, like I've always been able to climb 12a. I can climb 12a every week. Well, congratulations. Yeah, you could probably be climbing 13c.

Steve Bechtel  44:58

Yeah. Right.

Steve Bechtel  45:04

So so when you take your for your three weeks, and then your your deload or your easy week, when you start up the next three week, does it look the same as the previous three weeks? Do you change things around?

Steve Bechtel  45:48

You can, it depends on how involved the athlete wants to be and how much entertainment they need. 

Kris Hampton  45:55

Right.

Steve Bechtel  45:56

 I think that you know, like, because we, you know, we all know, there's about 10 really good ways to improve your strength, endurance, you know, different, you know, work rest cycles, different intervals, things like that. And if you if you're psyched on one, in particular, do it again for that next four weeks, but if you're like, oh, man, those 4x4s, were just mind numbing, I hated it, they'll go to a different style. And, and there's nothing wrong with that with with changing modes. I'm a big fan of of changing, like, hangboard protocols.

Kris Hampton  46:29

Yep, same here.

Steve Bechtel  46:30

Because like, you hear, like, I get this like, which is better, you know, what's the right? And it's like, and and I always say like, well, what's better is like Indian food or Mexican food?

Kris Hampton  46:40

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  46:40

It's like, it's all food, either. The critical thing is you keep eating. 

Kris Hampton  46:43

Mm hmm.

Steve Bechtel  46:44

 And, and with the hangboard stuff, I think different loading ratios are critical, going going heavy for certain parts of the year. You know, we'd like to change every four to six weeks. 

Kris Hampton  46:59

Yeah, with some time off between usually. 

Steve Bechtel  47:01

Yeah, and in some parts of the year, maybe you'll have like, like this time of year, all the climbers here locally, are trying to get their fingers strong, because of the the tweaky nature of the Wild Iris. And so you will spend, you know, four to six to eight weeks of really specific finger strength. And with a nonlinear program, you would say, okay, my strength day was going to be super intense this phase, and then maybe my energy system phase, or workout is more of a recovery style workout. But because it's a very plastic system, you know, you can you can change a lot there.

Kris Hampton  47:42

If If there was one, overarching or a few overarching general philosophies behind Logical Progression, what do you think those would be? And we may have already talked about or touched on these things. But...

Steve Bechtel  48:00

Um, well, the first thing is, is that training should be done to assure that you can practice effectively. Like you need to be strong enough to do the skills of the sport. Like, you know, we go out, we say we're practice, practice, practice but if I have somebody do 10 laps out the boulder cave, just working on heel hooking, they've still got to be able to climb out the boulder cave 10 times, right. And, and so we really wanted to make sure that they have those basic strength skills, that basic amount of power, that's going to allow them to practice effectively. Most climbers, most climbers I've ever dealt with have one glaring facet of their training that they that they've defocused and it's a personal preference or whatever. Like they're just not good at vertical climbing or they've, you know, they don't like stretching or, you know, I don't I just slopers are no good for me, whatever. And, and so we wanted them to have the skills or excuse me the strength to work that skill like crazy.

Kris Hampton  49:10

 Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  49:11

And so we do all the training in the background. And then, like, when it comes practice time, it's like, okay, it's sloper day, and we're gonna have sloper day until you are good at it. 

Kris Hampton  49:20

So you like sloper day? 

Steve Bechtel  49:21

Yeah, exactly.Yeah. As soon as you like it, you're done.

Kris Hampton  49:25

Then you move on to whatever you hate again.

Steve Bechtel  49:27

Yep, that's right. Um, yeah, well, like we have an athlete that's out trying to free a route on El Cap right now. And, you know, he loves bouldering, he loves power, but his entire training program has been work capacity. He knows that he had to get his boulder bouldering up to climb on El Cap and that's it, that's a an interesting thing. But but there's so much work that goes into it, you know, and so he had to do all this capacity, weight training laps on easier routes. You know, getting used to doing high huge amounts of work. And, and you know, you take that bitter pill because you want that reward at the end. And so that's what we're what we're always trying to do with that athletes find what their find what they're bad at. And that's their practice.

Kris Hampton  50:18

Mm hmm. You say something interesting in the book that I, that I really appreciate. And that's that you're basically pushing the idea that your training plan should be relatively simple, and not terribly complicated. And I think it's a, you know, "logical progression" is just another way of saying, here's how common sense works when you put things in a good order. And, and I think that's what you do with these plans. And, and you've taken a little bit of, here, let's, let's put it into a framework for you, in case you want it to look a little more complicated than it actually is. I think that's a smart way to approach it. 

Steve Bechtel  51:04

Yeah, yeah, I put those as examples, I think I think it lined out, like the training programs are examples, rather than here's what you have to do. 

Kris Hampton  51:13

Exactly.

Steve Bechtel  51:13

 Um, and there are all different levels of complexity, I think that the thing I'm really trying to get at is that you  don't want to go to the most complicated plan right away. You don't want to have to get super organized and super strict with yourself until you've, you've played out all of the easy interventions. 

Kris Hampton  51:41

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  51:42

You know, like, the the easy intervention, when you're doing your money is like, put your money in an IRA, you know, and once you're maxing out your IRA, then you can put it in a money market and whatever else but and at some point, when you're like Warren Buffett, there's a whole bunch of complicated crap going on.

Kris Hampton  51:59

Right.

Steve Bechtel  51:59

But if he was only putting away $100 a month, where would he be? And that's, that's where most climbers are. Like, I want them to be able to put all of their effort into how do I get better, at the crag, and then be back off a little bit on how conditioned they're they're trying to become. You've, you've worked with a lot of people long distance, and I've done the same. And one of the biggest issues I've ever had, is that you'd like you're giving them all these really great workouts and whatever else. And then when you finally get to see them face to face, you're like, oh, oh, I see, your movement really needs to be worked on. 

Kris Hampton  52:39

Right.

Steve Bechtel  52:39

We know...

Kris Hampton  52:40

Right.

Steve Bechtel  52:40

Or you're terrified. And you could have like, the strongest person in the world and if they can't put it together out there, then we you know, it doesn't matter which hangboard protocol they're doing. 

Kris Hampton  52:54

Yep,  absolutely.

Steve Bechtel  52:55

 It's that we need to we need to go back into just some really basic stuff. We've seen people that have super strong fingers, but they can't keep their hips in, you know, or they just start to get that like general torso fatigue. And, and so then you're like, Oh, god, this is super easy. Like we were coming up with these really complicated bouldering programs for you. We're working so hard in your power endurance, when really all we got to do is get your, your basic trunk strength up.

Kris Hampton  53:22

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  53:22

 And and your training just got super simple.

Kris Hampton  53:24

 Yep. 

Steve Bechtel  53:25

And, and, you know, and it's like, improving their climbing shoes or, you know, going, you know, dropping away from a 10.5mm rope or whatever it is. 

Kris Hampton  53:36

Right. Right. 

Steve Bechtel  53:37

Those are, those are the simple interventions.

Kris Hampton  53:39

Yeah, I think that's, I mean, that's such a huge part of what we do is try to figure out, try to read between the lines and see what it is that the client isn't seeing on their own. You know, we can do only so much with intake questionnaires and conversations. And, you know, you really have to dig into some what someone's doing, you know, to be super effective. But I do think there is a level of guiding people in the right direction that needs to be there regardless.

Steve Bechtel  54:11

Yeah. And and the other thing is, is, I think, innately we all know how to climb. Like we you see kids go onto the playground, and they just start doing it. And so, you know, there's there's a little bit of this, like, let's let them just keep playing, you know, and keep it fun. And Gosh, it's it's really easy to turn turn fun into work by by by training. 

Kris Hampton  54:41

Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  54:41

And so I think you do kind of walk that razor's edge there.

Kris Hampton  54:44

Yeah. And it depends on the person. You know, some people love the routine. They love to check the boxes, they, you know, that's more fun to them than just going in and experimenting and playing around. So...

Steve Bechtel  54:58

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  54:58

So you have to know the personality of the person too, to know what to give them. 

Steve Bechtel  55:03

Yeah, I remember there's a couple of guys that we've we've lost to training.

Kris Hampton  55:08

 Oh, yeah. For sure.

Steve Bechtel  55:09

 There was one guy that like was a really great climber. And then all of a sudden, all he wanted to do was campus. 

Kris Hampton  55:14

Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  55:14

You know, and they're, you know, like, he just became, you know, became like, obsessed with going like, you know, 1-5-8 or whatever his his goal was, but he doesn't, yeah, I can't go climbing today. I gotta campus.

Steve Bechtel  55:25

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  55:25

Right and I see that happen pretty often. 

Kris Hampton  55:26

 And whether it's, you know, climbing-specific training, or weightlifting or whatever, it's really easy to go down that path. And And honestly, if, you know, if that's what motivates you, and you're, you find that you're more excited about that than you are about going to the crag, then great. But, but be honest with yourself.

Steve Bechtel  55:47

Yeah. Well, and that's, that's that interesting thing. Like, I, I've got this reputation as being like, the anti-running person.

Kris Hampton  55:54

Right

Steve Bechtel  55:54

Like Steve hates running.

Kris Hampton  55:55

 Yeah,

Steve Bechtel  55:55

 But I and I do, I do hate running. But, um, but it's, it's interesting, cuz people are like, well, but I really want to run and you said, I can't, and I'm like, you can, but don't fool yourself into thinking that its training. 

Kris Hampton  56:07

Or that its helping your climbing.

Steve Bechtel  56:08

And it's the same with weight training or CrossFit. You know, like, there's been some really great climbers that have gotten into CrossFit and bright, very successful, but not with the mind of I'm going to use this to be a better climber. You know, it's just like, it's, it's what you're doing now, instead of climbing. So,

Kris Hampton  56:25

Yep, I agree. Anything you want to say to people about the book, any reason why people should go pick it up?

Steve Bechtel  56:34

I think I think the book mostly, is a tool for people that can't seem to make training program work, you know, maybe you've, you've built your own, you've read a different book, you've tried something, this is this is a different take. And it's, you know, we've got really good science behind nonlinear stuff. It's not just like an idea that I had, they there's, they have great data on on the effectiveness of it versus like a regular periodized program. And I think that it's one of these things, that's an individual thing, this is going to be a home run for some people. And we ran it, we wrote, let's see, I wrote the book in 2015, probably. And then early 2016, we edited and then I sent it out to a whole bunch of people. I just went to our email list, and I said, I'm working on this new book, if you guys want to read it, and try it, I'll send it to you send it out to a whole bunch of climbers. And I, you know, there's, there's one guy in particular that I, you know, that really is dialed on his training. And he's like, you know, I tested this to, you know, be nice to you. But I like my training program. And I have to admit, I had huge misgivings. But it really worked for me. And that's it. And he's a, you know, really seasoned athlete. And he's, you know, he'll probably use a hybrid of this and his normal programming. 

Kris Hampton  58:03

Right, right. 

Steve Bechtel  58:04

Which is actually kind of how I use it. But, but it's for people that can't quite make a rigid program fit for themselves, but still want something that they're going to see progress on, short of just bouldering Tuesday nights and doing routes on Thursday nights,

Kris Hampton  58:18

Right. And we've got a guy who's really active in our community, Brendan, and he's, he works on like a nine day schedule, or something rather, because of his job, rather than a seven day schedule, and he's had a lot of trouble making other training plans fit into his real life schedule. You know, and I think he really likes this one for that fact, that it's so easy to plug into his calendar. 

Steve Bechtel  58:44

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  58:45

It just makes total sense for him. Yeah.

Steve Bechtel  58:47

And, and I think that's the person that's gonna, it's gonna do really well for and I sort of was like, going, Okay, this is gonna be for this level of climber, you know, this great range of climber, but I was really wrong on that. I think it's, you know, we're seeing it effective straight across all the grade ranges around. It's more like, what's your life schedule? You know, are you busy? Are you not? You know, and, and, honestly, with a lot of these programs, it's like, what you haven't been doing is sometimes a miracle, just because it's a change from what your your body's been been subjected to.

Kris Hampton  59:21

Yep, totally. Okay, well, thanks for sitting down with me again.

Steve Bechtel  59:27

Yeah, I appreciate it. And we'll, I'm sure we'll have more to talk about soon.

Kris Hampton  59:32

Yeah, you're honorary co-host. Have been since the start. So so I think you'll be on some more, I'm sure. All right, go buy the book. Do I even have to tell you guys that it's it's honestly a really invaluable resource. If you're someone who writes your own plans and have a hard time sticking to even the plans that you write, you know, real life pops up and it's easy to get lost in that. So this is a really great place to start and Steve lays it out in a really nice fashion. You can find it on Amazon or you can find it on our site like I said in the intro, gives us a little bit of a kickback from Amazon so you know take some money from the big guys and give a tiny bit to us. That's helpful. You can find Steve at climbstrong.com.  As always, and you should go check him out. Watch your iTunes or your podcast app. Part Two is coming soon. Question and Answer with Steve about his book. And you know now's a good time to consider becoming a patron. You're going to get more of these Question and Answer type episodes. You're gonna get tips from our guests, and some extra conversations with the crew here at Power Company Climbing so consider becoming a patron at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Or you can just find us on our site at powercompanyclimbing.com and you can find us on the Facebooks, the Pinterest, the Instagrams and you should be sharing us all over those sites. And you can share us on your Twitter's, but you're not going to find us there because as you know, we don't tweet we scream like eagles.