Episode 63: Belief and Partnership with Tommy Caldwell
Tommy Caldwell needs no introduction to any of you. I thought I knew it all, too, until I read his recent memoir, "The Push." If you haven't read it, click the link below to buy and read it NOW! I'm not sure exactly what I expected from the book, but I didn't expect Tommy to have looked so deeply into his own past and motivations in order to discover where his nearly maniacally focused drive comes from. Put simply, it blew me away.
Tommy stopped over to sit and chat with me in Lander about two of the topics that I felt permeate his climbing: Belief and Partnership. So often we don't believe we can do a route because of one move that we have trouble with. Imagine that there are dozens of those moves over more than 3,000 feet of climbing, and it takes you years to unlock them. Would you stick with it? Would you believe? And what kind of partnership is required to make that happen?
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Meagan Martin 00:00
This is Meagan Martin and you're listening to The Power Company Podcast.
Kris Hampton 00:04
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Meagan Martin 00:04
Yeah no problem. Good to see you.
Kris Hampton 00:05
I'll see you tonight and good luck.
Kris Hampton 00:39
What's up everybody, I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 63 of The Power Company Podcast brought to you by Powercompanyclimbing.com. I am back in Lander, Wyoming and ahh... but only for a couple of days. I'm headed straight back out to Salt Lake City for the Climb Strong Performance Climbing Coach seminar. And I'm really looking forward to talking with the coaches there about deliberate practice and growth mindset and just getting to.... build with everybody out there and you know, hearing your ideas and what you guys are doing that, you know, that's huge for me. That means a lot. So I'll be out there with Steve Bechtel and, and his team of coaches that he's put together for this seminar. So see you guys out there. And after that, I'm headed to Bozeman with Nate and we're going to be at Spire Climbing Center November 13th through the 19th. We're there all week. We're kind of taking over out there and we appreciate Spire having us out. We're doing a bunch of workshops. We are also, right now I'm working out the details for a live podcast with local Kelsey Sather about her interview series, "The Work Behind The Body", which features female outdoor athletes. And you can find that at thesewordslikerocks.com. And if you're in Bozeman, you'll be hearing more about that soon. I'm really excited to get to talk to Kelsey and we're going to do this episode in memory of our mutual friend Inge Perkins, who she's also featured on her series. So really looking forward to that. And then we'll be in Knoxville the first week of December at Onsight. And we'll be doing a special body tension event at Crux Conditioning in Chattanooga on December 9, that's our guy, Paul Corsaro's new gym in Chatty. He just put up the Tension Board. Big things are happening over there. So if you haven't, and you're in Chatty, go check him out. And hopefully we'll see you there on December 9. Let's just jump into this thing. Today's guest doesn't really need an intro. All of you know him. All of you know a lot about him actually, most likely. And this summer, I got to sit down during the International Climbers Festival with Tommy Caldwell after I had read his book, "The Push", and I was really, really blown away by this book. I didn't expect much. To be honest, I don't hold rock climbers to a very high standard of writing anymore. And maybe that's a problem. But Tommy really, really stepped it up with this book. With the help of Kelly Cordes, he's he's got a real masterpiece, in my opinion here. So if you haven't checked out "The Push", you should definitely do that. And if you go to the blog post for this podcast and buy it through our website, we get a little bit of a kickback. That helps us and we appreciate any support you can give. But I'm going to just jump into this conversation with Tommy Caldwell about two of the things that I thought really exemplified, you know, this, this process of climbing, this lifestyle of climbing in in the book and in his Dawn Wall ascent, and those things were belief and partnership.
Tommy Caldwell 04:05
And I think that the people who think of partnership first are the ones that tend to be the lifers, you know. They're gonna be the guys that are like 80 years old sitting in the coffee shop with their old climbing buddies, like talking about the good old days.
Tommy Caldwell 04:21
And then in the summer, that's when the training was really start, like get going, and then it would all kind of lead up to that fall season in Yosemite.
Kris Hampton 04:39
Yeah, I think that schedule is super important.
Tommy Caldwell 04:42
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 04:42
You know, well, you just said something really interesting that that you're.... about your writing.... that you write with self consciousness, you're self conscious when you write.
Tommy Caldwell 04:55
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 04:56
And when I read the book, I was pretty blown away at how open it was and how honest it was and I really, really appreciate that because I think as climbers, we, we oftentimes try to be too tough. We don't want to show our weaknesses. We don't want to be, you know, open with our mistakes and, and you were, hugely, in the book. And, and I've recommended it to a lot of people just saying, this is one of the best pieces of climbing literature that I've seen in a long time. So I really appreciate that.
Tommy Caldwell 05:32
Yeah, that's, that's, that's cool that you thought that and you felt that about the book. That's probably the biggest feedback I got. People are shocked at how open and honest and vulnerable it is.
Kris Hampton 05:42
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 05:42
Mostly people admire that.
Kris Hampton 05:45
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Tommy Caldwell 05:45
There's always the people out there, though, that are gonna be like, try to cut you down. So I haven't gotten too much of that, though. But, you know, I think I looked at that in terms of the, the writing that I admire the most is like that. For me writing the book was much more than just like telling my story. It was about reliving my experiences and, and understanding them more myself. It was really cathartic and so you kind of have to go as deep as possible to have that happen.
Kris Hampton 06:10
Yeah, it feels like that, too. It feels like you're digging into the experience while you're writing it.
Tommy Caldwell 06:14
Yeah, no writing, I mean, I got totally obsessed with writing it because I was like, man, I'm, I'm like, I'm connecting the dots in my life in ways that I just never have before because I've just always been on trips, and I've never allowed myself to do that. I think that's really important. I think it helped me grow a lot.
Kris Hampton 06:29
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 06:29
And then but then also, there was like, there's sections of it that I would be writing and I'd be like I don't know if I'd ever want people to read this. But then I would just like force myself to turn that off. And I've been through a few experiences in my life that made me okay with that. With like, just like, I mean, specifically, when I went to Kyrgyzstan when I had this crazy thing in Kyrgyzstan, when that's a big part of the book, there was this climber that just like was, was convinced that we had made the whole thing up.
Kris Hampton 06:57
Yeah, yeah, which is insane.
Tommy Caldwell 06:58
He went on like a six month escapade to try and prove that we were wrong. So not only I came back from a very traumatizing trip, now there's somebody like, half the world believes that we just made this thing up. And so at that point, I was just like, you can't worry about what everything what what other people think.
Kris Hampton 07:13
Right. Totally.
Tommy Caldwell 07:13
Yeah, you just have to be true to yourself and that's, uh, you know, I always thought about that when I was writing the book. And I had good mentors that always pushed me in that direction. You know, Jon Krakauer gave me a lot of editorial feedback as well. He's great in that way.
Kris Hampton 07:13
Yeah. Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 07:25
As well as Kelly.
Kris Hampton 07:29
Cool. Well, there are two two threads that kind of run throughout the whole book. And when I was watching the Dawn Wall and and to be honest, I'm I'm not somebody who likes to watch climbing. I think climbing is incredibly boring to watch.
Tommy Caldwell 07:43
Yeah, haha I kind of feel the same way.
Kris Hampton 07:44
I love it. I love doing it. It's my whole life, but hate watching it. But when the live feed was up of the Dawn Wall, all my friends and I were all texting each other like, are you watching this? You have to watch this, you know, and I was glued to the fucking screen watching it.
Tommy Caldwell 07:58
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 07:59
And the threads that I think run through all of that are belief and partnership. And I want to start with the belief part. And you talked about in the book, that you spent all this time digging a hole to China when you were a kid.
Tommy Caldwell 08:15
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 08:15
You know, tell me a little bit about that, for the people who haven't read the book yet.
Tommy Caldwell 08:20
Yeah. So I think I start out the book, chapter one in fact, starts with me digging a hole. Yeah, trying to dig a hole to China when I was four years old.
Kris Hampton 08:26
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 08:26
And through decomposing granite. SoI have the shovel, and I'm just like, chipping away
Kris Hampton 08:30
Hacking away at it.
Tommy Caldwell 08:31
I mean, I thought that this story was such a great way to illustrate kind of, like, what I was naturally born with. I just had this this like, capacity to stick with something really hard, you know, in a way that seemed kind of crazy to a lot of people. And I'm still like that. And, you know, I think that what it is, and it's taking me a long time to figure out this out, is less than a belief that I'm going to get there, um, because I'd never, you know, I'd never really knew if I would get to China, you know.
Kris Hampton 09:00
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 09:01
It's, and it's more of a love of just being out there, you know.
Kris Hampton 09:05
Right, right.
Kris Hampton 09:06
Totally.
Tommy Caldwell 09:06
When I was a kid, I love the satisfaction of like, digging all the time. I didn't, I mean, I don't I mean, maybe there was a time when I was a four year old that I was like, I'm gonna dig to China. That's what got me started. But then I realized, I just loved being out there. It was like this meditative thing. And it got me out of the house and I was outside and I was working hard. And I've just always really loved that. And that was the Dawn Wall too. Like if I was so focused on success, I think I would have given up years ago.
Tommy Caldwell 09:07
It was more like when I would when I would give up, because I gave up on several occasions, and then I would see what what my life was like without this focus of working towards this thing and I didn't like it as much as when I had that focus.
Kris Hampton 09:40
Yeah, totally. So do you think that's something innate that you were just born with? I mean, that's how you phrased it. Or do you think it's something you picked up from your parents or something?
Tommy Caldwell 09:45
I think it's a combination of things. I think I was innately born with that. I was a pretty socially, like shy kid and so I think the digging the hole thing was, you know my parents had an at home daycare thing, it got me away from that.
Kris Hampton 10:01
Oh gotcha. Yeah, yeah,
Tommy Caldwell 10:02
It's like I always needed that me time.
Kris Hampton 10:04
That was your space.
Tommy Caldwell 10:06
That was my space. And I still need that. Still want that. So that's something that's built into me. But I think what happened is I would get maniacally focused on things from a really young age and then sometimes that would lead to success. Like sometimes I would never get there. I never made it to China, right. But sometimes I would, I would find success and I think that becomes kind of addicting. Like, I realized that if you work really hard for stuff, it can happen.
Kris Hampton 10:32
Yeah, totally
Tommy Caldwell 10:33
. And once that happens over, you know, a few times you start to want that more.
Kris Hampton 10:37
Yeah. Were there ever moments that you remember digging that hole to China where you were like, fuck it, I'm never getting to China?
Tommy Caldwell 10:44
Haha, yeah, I've never...I was so young back then that I can't...yeah, I mean, I think I think my ideas, like at first I was gonna gonna go to China and then I was just decided that that was too, too, too hard. So I was just gonna dig this big underground fort with multiple rooms.
Kris Hampton 11:03
Haha nice. That seemed really easy?
Tommy Caldwell 11:04
That seemed like that was gonna be easier haha. And then eventually ended up giving up on it.
Kris Hampton 11:11
Yeah, well, you had bigger things to do. Maybe not bigger things. You had realistic things to do. So something about the Dawn Wall that I think is... a lot of people miss, that's important is just the belief that the thing existed as a free climb to begin with. You know, a lot of climbers understand climbing, and they understand it in terms of difficulty and that the Dawn Wall was incredibly difficult. But they don't necessarily understand, because they haven't been around long enough, or they haven't developed or they've not seen what Yosemite actually looks like and what those walls can be. But understanding that you can free climb up that wall is something totally different than looking at an obvious line, like a crack or connecting features, or something like that. So I think there's a huge amount of belief that goes into just rapping down that wall and looking for holds. And you spent a lot of time doing this, right?
Tommy Caldwell 12:09
Yeah, yeah, this started out because I, I spent 15 years climbing on El Cap previous to starting the Dawn Wall.
Kris Hampton 12:17
Right. Yep.
Tommy Caldwell 12:18
And so I climbed all those crack lines. And you know, first I did the really obvious ones, then I did ones that were slightly less obvious. I did all the stylish routes, and then I did my own routes and then I eventually got to a point where I was like, I know more about this wall than anybody probably,
Tommy Caldwell 12:32
In free climbing.
Kris Hampton 12:32
Probably
Kris Hampton 12:33
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 12:33
And I think I was slightly led in this direction by a good friend of mine, Jim Collins, who was actually one of my mentors in this book. He's, he's a, he's a funny person to talk about in climbing circles, because he writes books for business.
Kris Hampton 12:44
Business, yeah. He's brilliant.
Tommy Caldwell 12:46
So he, it's like, he's this very passionate guy. A lot of people kind of roll their eyes when you talk about like, The Flywheel and, you know, The Hedgehog Concept and all these things that he's come up that apply with, apply to, to business. But he's a good friend of mine and he gets so psyched to talking about this stuff and he, when I spend time with him, it like, these things knit themselves together. And I think part of like, I went and started looking at the Dawn Wall before I really knew Jim that well, but then I got to know him and he then you know, we'd go climbing together, and he would talk about these things. And, you know, like The Flywheel, like, I've been doing all these routes on El Cap, and I've gotten better and better and better and, you know, trying to connect these dots. And I was like, man, if there's one thing in life that I can be the best in the world at, which is big thing, it would be El Cap climbing. That's like the only thing that I'm good at really. And so the chance to do that, you know, appealed to me. Um, I think, you know, most athletes have this, you know, they're, they're attracted to the idea of excellence, I guess.
Kris Hampton 13:48
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 13:48
So that was the one place that I could maybe, you know, find it or get closer to it.
Kris Hampton 13:52
Yeah. How much time do you think you spent just rapping off the top looking for holds, trying to figure out if it was gonna even be possible?
Tommy Caldwell 14:00
Ah you know, there was, you know, maybe 20 days over a year, something like that.
Kris Hampton 14:06
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 14:07
And that's, that was what it took to get a vague idea of where the route might go.
Kris Hampton 14:13
Right, right.
Tommy Caldwell 14:13
To do a few of the moves and be like, I think this is where it goes here. But really, throughout the seven year process, there was tons of times where we'd get to a section I thought was too hard and then I'd start looking for more alternatives. And even even one week before the final go where we sent it, I found new variations.
Kris Hampton 14:28
Right.
Kris Hampton 14:28
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 14:28
And so I mean, it's a massive puzzle. Like the difference between what's free climbable and what's not on vertical granite is, you know, like these tiny, tiny edges.
Tommy Caldwell 14:31
Like, you could look at it hanging, you could hang on a rope and look at it and have no idea whether it would go or not. You actually had to sit there and fiddle with the moves.
Kris Hampton 14:46
Yep. Try to find your balance.
Tommy Caldwell 14:47
Yeah, try to figure out if it was possible. And so yeah, there's there's seven years of that.
Kris Hampton 14:53
Yeah. And, and I think a lot of people, you know, I hear all the time from clients, from other trainers, other climbers that even spending 20 days on, on a project that's already been bolted, the holds chalked up and you know, everything goes is crazy. You know, spending 20 days just to determine if you think it might be possible, I mean, that seems huge to a lot of people.
Tommy Caldwell 15:22
Yeah. Yeah, I wonder....yeah, that's a great question. No, I've never ever really dug into this, even in the book, that much. Like why I wanted to do that. Um, yeah, I mean, my Kevin Jorgensen, my climbing partner for the Dawn Wall, he, like he thought I was a bit nutty in this way but he just kept coming back for whatever reason. But he was like, dude, you're so optimistic.
Kris Hampton 15:46
Yeah
Tommy Caldwell 15:46
I don't I don't know if it's optimism. I don't know what it is. But we would be up there and you know, ice would be falling down around us, the climb would be wet and I'd always be wanting to be up there still working on it. And I think it was more than anything, like what I said before, just the love of like the process, the mechanics of meditation behind climbing, the the the aspect of being an explorer. Like we were, we're sort of like doing something on El Cap that nobody had done before and that's, that's freaking cool for me. Like I'm a fan of like Ernest Shackleton, like these people, these these Arctic explorers and this was my realm where I could do something kind of similar to that.
Kris Hampton 16:21
Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, I think you just hit on it. Like, all those explorers had this belief that they were going out there to reach something.
Tommy Caldwell 16:30
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 16:30
They're going there to see something important. That their, tou know, that their journey, whatever it is, they loved that journey and they believed in it.
Tommy Caldwell 16:40
Yeah. And you and I think there's boldness attached to that, too.
Kris Hampton 16:44
For sure.
Tommy Caldwell 16:44
Like, you're, you're gonna fail over and over again. You might never succeed. You have to be okay with that.
Kris Hampton 16:50
Yeah, I'm glad you just defined boldness that way, because boldness doesn't have to be just climbing 40 feet above a shitty piece that might blow if you fall. You know, boldness can just be putting yourself in the line of failure.
Tommy Caldwell 17:06
Yeah
Kris Hampton 17:06
You know, yeah, it's different for everybody.
Tommy Caldwell 17:08
Yeah, I actually find boldness in terms of like, life-risking things, like I come relatively natural to that.
Kris Hampton 17:15
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 17:15
So therefore, I don't admire it as much as
Kris Hampton 17:17
Sure
Tommy Caldwell 17:17
As like personal boldness like but like doing something that you might fail on. Like another main character in this book is Alex Honnold and he's the boldest guy in the world probably in terms of doing things that might kill him.
Kris Hampton 17:29
Right right.
Tommy Caldwell 17:29
But he's never gonna try anything, at least he hasn't yet, that he might fail on. He only does those things he absolutely knows he's gonna succeed on.
Kris Hampton 17:37
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 17:37
So in that way, he's like, a bit of a pussy really.
Kris Hampton 17:40
Yeah. Hahaha. I love it. I love it. Another another guy that, you know, Ondra came and repeated the Dawn Wall.
Tommy Caldwell 17:50
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 17:51
And you were really gracious in that and, and I loved seeing those posts. How much do you think, knowing where the route went, being able to see videos, being able to talk to you and Kevin, how much of the difficulty do you think that removes? Not to take anything away from Adam at all, because we all know he's a ridiculously incredible climber, but....
Tommy Caldwell 18:19
Yeah, I mean, this goes back to that belief thing. Whenever anything in sports gets done for the first time, it tends to get repeated pretty quickly.
Kris Hampton 18:26
Yep.
Tommy Caldwell 18:27
And that's just that whole, like, believing that can be done. Like if it's been done, you just know that. So that's the that's the major hurdle, in my mind. But having said that, the fact that Adam came as a very inexperienced trad climber.
Kris Hampton 18:40
Sure sure
Tommy Caldwell 18:41
Hadn't really climbed big walls at all and managed to tick that thing off in a month was unbelievable.
Kris Hampton 18:46
Yeah, yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 18:46
What he did was absolutely extraordinary. Yeah, but he didn't have to, you know, he just knew it could be done and we had the logistics worked out, which took, I mean, we were coming up with logistical changes, you know, right up to the bitter end. That really helped.
Kris Hampton 19:01
Right. Right. Yeah. And I think you just hit on what it is. You know, sports, you know, the four minute mile....Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile and pretty quickly after other people were doing it. You know, but the four minute mile is something anybody could go try.
Kris Hampton 19:15
You know, not everybody was gonna get anywhere close to it, but, but there were a lot of people pushing toward the four minute mile. At the same time, there were a lot of people saying it was impossible. The Dawn Wall wasn't something that everybody could just go up and try.
Tommy Caldwell 19:15
Yeah
Tommy Caldwell 19:34
Right.
Kris Hampton 19:35
You know, it took it took a lot of years of climbing on El Cap. It took 20ish days of swinging around on a rope trying to find little razor blades that you can stand on. You know, there's, there's something inherently different about that type of athletic achievement and I think the exploration part is so key in it. I think that's such a, I mean, it's a frontier, really, you know, going up there and figuring out this path, so...
Tommy Caldwell 20:10
Yeah, the people that are the most dedicated, I think, are super curious. You know, they just want to, they really, really want to answer those questions like, what are they capable of? What can you do in the sport? Or whatever it is. I mean, we're talking about climbing as a sport, but I mean, it could be a science or it could be you know, whatever.
Kris Hampton 20:27
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 20:28
Um, but yeah, I think I'm, like, always super curious about that. And the Dawn Wall too is, was this attempt to kind of figure out like these, these, I mean, I think, originally, I thought it would maybe push me to this place of like, understanding my limits in terms of endurance, which it didn't actually do that, again, because it's just so darn hard that we had to climb really slow. But when I go into bigger mountains, it's I have found that that's an that's a venue, because also in Kyrgyzstan, I, we were pushed to this to this, like breaking point and past. Like we were forced to this place where we were, we had to come to this understanding that we're capable of way more than we than we thought we could have without being forced in that position. So I've always been really curious about that. And so I always pick these big climbs or these big objectives to kind of try and get me back there.
Kris Hampton 21:21
You were hoping the Dawn Wall would take you to that place.
Tommy Caldwell 21:22
Yeah, it didn't in that way. Yeah, it was more, I mean, it did in terms of, like, just sticking it out for a lot for a long time. But it didn't like in terms of the endurance aspect and sort of...
Kris Hampton 21:28
Do you think there'll have to be that fear or danger element involved to get to that place again, the same place you were in?
Tommy Caldwell 21:41
No, I don't think so. I think it's just, I think, as I'm thinking more about it, it's more, it's just a it's just a mega endurance thing, like ultra runners are curious about this. People who go on expeditions and go, you know, people who do these multi day things without sleeping or eating. I think it's the same. It's more, it's more that kind of curiosity.
Kris Hampton 22:01
Yeah. Yeah. And you guys had it, I mean, as cush as you can have it up there, really.
Tommy Caldwell 22:05
Yeah. Haha. Yeah. Yeah, we got to a point where like, the individual moves on the Dawn Wall were so hard that we had to make the rest of the environment as conducive to being able to do those moves as possible.
Kris Hampton 22:18
Yeah. You need good food. You need good sleep.
Tommy Caldwell 22:19
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're in our in our sleeping bags, like 16 hours a day. Eating salmon and avocados.
Kris Hampton 22:31
It sounds like the ideal thing to do
Tommy Caldwell 22:33
Haha having food delivered to us every five days. Haha it was incredibly cush.
Kris Hampton 22:39
That's perfect. You mentioned a couple times that that you were changing things right up until the last minute and I know one of those things was you had tried and tried and tried to do the dyno pitch.
Tommy Caldwell 22:55
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 22:56
And had hurt yourself on it, and had hurt yourself training for it and and then you came up with this somewhat ridiculous solution. That, again, goes right back to that belief thing. Like when you're on this big wall with all these blank sections, and you finally find a way across, it would be really easy to say, this the only way, you know. I have to do this. But you went you went back eventually to there has to be another way. You know, I spent all this time, I found one way, but there still has to be another. And then you found it. You know, what was your mindset like when you finally decided to look for that loop pitch?
Tommy Caldwell 23:41
Um, I mean, we went through this process over and over again, where we'd get to sections, and we would decide that they were too hard and then we'd look for alternatives. And then we'd come come and then sometimes we wouldn't find them, so we'd go back and try and work out that section.
Kris Hampton 23:54
Right, right.
Tommy Caldwell 23:54
And then that section, the dyno was probably the, the place where that happened the most. I found the dyno pretty early on. In that first 20 days of exploration, I found it. And I was like, I think this is the way, but then I kept, like not being able to do it. I would train for it. I reproduced... I measured out all the distances and rebuilt it at my house in Colorado. Then I'd train there, and then I'd come back and I could never do it.
Kris Hampton 24:19
And you ended up tearing your labrum training in your shed for it, right?
Tommy Caldwell 24:23
Yep, yep. Um, but then, so there's a bunch of times where I was just like I can't do this. So we'd try different variations. But this variation that I ended up finding was just kind of absurd. Like, I'd never heard of a pitch like that in climbing, so it just hadn't occurred to me haha until it absolutely had to.
Kris Hampton 24:40
Yeah, explain that pitch. I understand what it looks like after having, you know, I heard your description of it on Kalous' podcast.
Tommy Caldwell 24:47
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 24:48
And then I've read about it and looked at it and it's super interesting. And and even though it's a little bit absurd, I think that requires even more creativity and belief to figure out that that's how it's going to work. Because you could be like, That's stupid. I'm not doing that.
Tommy Caldwell 25:10
Haha yeah it is kinda stupid, but all climbing is kinda stupid.
Kris Hampton 25:13
So explain how that pitch works.
Tommy Caldwell 25:14
I mean so for climbers for climbers, it seems pretty absurd because the previous pitch ends at the, you know, we tried to climb from no-hands stance to no-hand stance.
Kris Hampton 25:22
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 25:22
It ends on this ledge that's like two inches thick.
Kris Hampton 25:24
Yep.
Tommy Caldwell 25:24
But the belays that are on the wall previously, were oftentimes put in by aid climbers. And so just the, the way that this pitch was set up is you stop on this no-hands stance and then you set up your portaledge from this existing belay, which is like, you know, three feet across from that no-hands stance. You can actually step from the no-hands stance into the portaledge. But that three feet, or that where the portaledge sits, it's totally blank face. Absolutely blank face. And that's the section we couldn't get around, that blank face right where the portaledge sits. So the dyno was one way to do it. You'd climb up 12 feet, jump across this blank, this blank section and that was the dyno, but I could never do that. So what I figured out is you could actually start on that no-hands stance, climb back across the previous pitch 30 feet down, like 100 feet across, down below and then up like, you're down 100 feet, across and then up 100 feet and then end within reaching distance of the same portaledge you just left. It's like a 240 foot pitch or something that made 8 feet of progress.
Kris Hampton 26:29
Right. Yeah, I think that takes a ton of creativity to figure that out. Like I just have to find a way through here and maybe going right through it isn't the best way.
Tommy Caldwell 26:38
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 26:38
You know
Tommy Caldwell 26:39
Yeah, I think it was just desperation that lead to that, in that in that moment, I guess.
Kris Hampton 26:44
Yeah. But that, you know, a lot of people's desperation would just end in quitting.
Tommy Caldwell 26:48
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 26:49
You know, and that your desperation ended in, "Let's be creative and find a different way.", I think that's pretty important.
Tommy Caldwell 26:56
Yeah. You know, I think that's a maturity thing. More than anything, like when I was when I was when I was 18 years old, there's no way I would have had that kind of patience.
Kris Hampton 27:02
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That makes good sense. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely didn't have that kind of patience when I was 18 years old. So one of the things I want to talk about, as far as belief goes, and the Dawn Wall was in 2011, you said that was your final season. Like, I'm doing it. It's done. If I don't do it, I'm over it. And then that season, kind of beat you down.
Tommy Caldwell 27:28
Yeah, it really beat me down.
Kris Hampton 27:29
Let you know who's boss a little bit. But then you didn't quit, you know. Why?
Tommy Caldwell 27:35
Yeah. I mean, it came down to I thought my lifestyle was changing in a way that wasn't gonna allow me to go back. I had a kid on the way.
Kris Hampton 27:43
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 27:45
I was like, there's no way I'm going to be able to dedicate this much of my life towards the Dawn Wall and I thought it was an all consuming project at that point. Um, and so I was like, this is it. If I don't do it, I'm, I'm done. And then I didn't do it. Um, but then, I think it was my wife more than anything that kind of talked me into going back because like, the idea of leaving it completely was pretty depressing for me. Like, I felt like I was gonna be direct, directionless in a away.
Kris Hampton 28:14
Yeah, it was a big part of your life.
Tommy Caldwell 28:15
Yeah. And so she saw that in me, and she's like, I think you should keep trying. And she's somebody who is, she's like a dabbler in everything. She's very good at balancing all aspects of life where that's my weakness, probably. I tend to focus on one thing and like, go full bore into that.
Kris Hampton 28:35
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 28:35
So having somebody that's the opposite end of that spectrum is really good for me. And she, she thought that maybe achieving better balance in life would actually help me, and it did in the end. I mean, I think that, what I did is I decided I would only focus on the Dawn Wall for like four months a year instead of 12.
Kris Hampton 28:52
Right, right, right.
Tommy Caldwell 28:53
After that, I would go, we would go to Yosemite because we like bringing our kids to Yosemite. We wanted to show them the place the same way that my dad had showed me the place and having the Dawn Wall as an extra incentive to do that was going to just help that whole scene. So she was able to look at it and be like yeah, why not? You should just keep trying this. That'll get us to Yosemite. I love Yosemite. And so, yeah, it's like, the belief, it's funny, like, the whole idea of belief is a little bit of a weird thing in my mind, because belief, in a way comes from not caring about success.
Kris Hampton 29:25
Sure. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask is that was that year, kind of the reset that you needed? Like, take your mind off of the objective and by adding all these new things in, this adding in the baby, you know, adding in just this whole new aspect of your life, you had to focus a little more on the process when it was there and less on, "I need to do the Dawn Wall."
Tommy Caldwell 29:52
Yeah, absolutely. I floated in and out of that. Like there would be times where like, I'm just gonna go to Yosemite and I'm like, I'm gonna I'm gonna climb up on the Dawn Wall. We'll see if they Come together. But then things would start to come together and then I would be like, "We're gonna frickin send the thing!" and I would get so focused on success again. But I think it was really important to not always be focused on success. It was really, really important to kind of like float from one sort of attitude towards the route. There's times when it was great to full drive, full bore ahead. There's, you know, I spent a lot of time up there just partying with friends.
Kris Hampton 30:21
Right. Right.
Tommy Caldwell 30:21
And that really important too.
Kris Hampton 30:23
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's important even on like, single pitch sport routes, like, there are times when you need to, you need to fucking go. You need to send it. You need to try really fucking hard. And then there are times when you know, it's more fun just to hang out at the base or take it a bolt and laugh with your friends or whatever it is.
Tommy Caldwell 30:43
Yeah, it's funny. Sport climbers...sport climbing is an incredibly mental game, right?
Kris Hampton 30:47
For sure.
Tommy Caldwell 30:48
And I'm gonna have...I can't even count how many times I've heard this story where somebody was so focused on a project, they're driving so hard, and then they sent it because they kind of gave up.
Kris Hampton 30:59
Yeah, I've for a long time, I wanted to, like disprove that.
Tommy Caldwell 31:03
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 31:04
And then every time I would like, somehow get beat down on a project and then I would be like, I'm just gonna go climb on it. I'm over it. I don't care. I would send and I'm like, fuck. I'm trying to disprove this Chris Sharma attitude but
Tommy Caldwell 31:20
Yeah, it works.
Kris Hampton 31:21
It works every, every time.
Tommy Caldwell 31:23
Yeah, there's something about being freed from the mental anguish is, you some people just naturally have that, like Chris Sharma. He's just always kind of freed or mostly kind of freed.
Kris Hampton 31:32
Yeah, yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 31:34
I'm not like that. So, yeah,
Kris Hampton 31:37
You tend to focus in on it?
Tommy Caldwell 31:38
Yeah, a little bit too much.
Kris Hampton 31:39
Yeah. Do you think Kevin helped to take you out of that in the end? Or was he the same way?
Tommy Caldwell 31:46
Um, Kevin... I think Kevin went through a similar process. He actually wanted to give up a lot more than I did and I would kind of talk him into coming back or push him. I think for Kevin, it was kind of interesting, because I loved being up there, right. I, I had this idea that we might do it in the end, which at some times I tried to focus on, and sometimes I wouldn't. Kevin was very different. I feel like he wanted to learn. But I also feel like in some ways, he didn't really care that much whether we did it.
Kris Hampton 32:23
Right, right.
Tommy Caldwell 32:24
Because for him, he saw it as like, I'm learning while I'm here and this is good for my career. He he saw the Dawn Wall as like a business opportunity.
Kris Hampton 32:32
Sure.
Tommy Caldwell 32:33
Which was very different than me, like we clashed a little bit in that way. I was like, this was about the heart for me. You know, I come from, I'm kind of old school in that way. You can't turn climbing into a business. For him, he's like, why not? You know, this is great. This is like doing, this is this is doing the things that my sponsors want for me just by being here, even if we don't send it. And so I think that's why he came back over and over again.
Kris Hampton 32:54
Yeah, ultimately, did you adopt any of his thoughts? And do you think he adopted any of yours?
Tommy Caldwell 33:00
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was strange. I mean, I think the partnership with Kevin was really, really crazy because we came at it from such different directions. Like all of my climbing partners of the past, I'm like, super close to. You know, they are like the people that I go to with for like, relationship advice, or you like bond in climbing. With Kevin, he was like a colleague. We actually never became super close friends throughout the whole thing.
Kris Hampton 33:27
You mentioned several times in the book that you were still kind of.... that there were times when you would look for that, like hope that that was what was about to happen.
Tommy Caldwell 33:34
Yeah, because that's what was built within me. I was like, god, is there something wrong with me. Like should we not be climbing together because we don't hang out together and drink beers after work?
Kris Hampton 33:43
Right, right.
Tommy Caldwell 33:43
I would, I would invite him to come to hangout, and he would always turn me down and I would be like, hurt by that, almost.
Kris Hampton 33:49
Sure.
Tommy Caldwell 33:50
Um, but I think in the end, actually, it was probably really kind of a good, like, the relationship worked quite well. And so because our roles were so defined, and he brought things that I just totally went, I definitely adopted a lot of things from Kevin, like, his very scientific approach, like move by move. He's such a scientist. He's got this like photographic memory. And then in terms of like, the career aspects, after a while, I was like, he's kind of right. Like, we're just here, like, why, why just keep this experience to ourselves. He's the one that introduced social media to the whole thing.
Kris Hampton 34:23
Right. And this is how I got to watch a live stream of you at the end there.
Tommy Caldwell 34:27
That just was so weird for me. The New York Times ran a huge piece about that when, the first year that he did that, like should this be something that's in the mountains, should this be in the mountains or not, and I was more like, it shouldn't be in the mountains at that time. But then I'd come down and I'd meet people like you who were super psyched to watch it and I was like maybe, maybe by just keeping this experience to us, maybe that's actually more selfish.
Kris Hampton 34:48
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 34:49
So in the end, I totally got on board. I started doing my Instagram updates, and that's why it blew up in the media in the end, which is changed my life, you know. Changed my life in a lot of ways, for better and for worse.
Kris Hampton 35:00
And then you threw your phone off the wall and told everyone you dropped it.
Tommy Caldwell 35:03
Yeah. So I was still hugely conflicted about it. But it did. But I mean, honestly, I think the one of the reasons that I was able to keep going back year after year after year is because financially it did make sense and that wouldn't have happened without Kevin's view of things
Kris Hampton 35:17
Sure. Sure. Yeah, I hadn't really thought of that. But that's a that's an important piece to it for sure.
Kris Hampton 35:22
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 35:23
Like, like it was I could kind of pull this thing where, "I have to go to work."
Kris Hampton 35:27
Yeah, yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 35:28
This is like my job.
Kris Hampton 35:29
Yeah, this is my job, honey.
Tommy Caldwell 35:31
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 35:32
And speaking of jobs, this podcast is part of my job. So I wanted to tell you guys how you can help support a little bit. And after this one minute break, we'll be back talking with Tommy Caldwell about partnership.
Kris Hampton 35:46
Hey, everybody, Kris here, I'll try to keep this short and sweet. Since this thing became officially official, I've basically been obsessed. I've got dozens of episodes waiting to go out and I'm constantly recording new conversations. I want to continue putting this level of energy into it and you all can help. We've created a page at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast where you can help support what we're building. In return, even for as little as $1 per month, you'll get access to the brand new We Scream Like Eagles Podcast, which includes tips from our guests, extra conversations about hot topics, and Q and A's with your questions posed to our guests. If you think it's worth more than $1 a month, we've got other rewards available on top of the bonus episodes like stickers, ebooks, t shirts and training plans. So if you've been considering pitching in, now's the time. That's patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Thanks a ton. And back to the show.
Kris Hampton 36:46
Climbing is kind of a selfish thing, like, inherently it is. You know, we have our, we have our projects that we're focused on, and our friends are focused on their own projects and so climbing becomes this inherently selfish thing. But you know, and I've talked to your friend Justen Sjong on the podcast, and when I when I said climbing is selfish, he got really offended, and you know, kind of wanted to argue about it. And and we did, and it was a great conversation. And, and I agree that it shouldn't be so selfish, that partnership is a really, really big part of it.
Tommy Caldwell 37:22
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 37:22
Where do you think that first came up in your life? Like, where did that partnership within climbing come from? Because I feel like so many young climbers coming up right now, it stays really selfish for them for a long time.
Tommy Caldwell 37:36
Yeah. I mean, probably from my dad, more than anything. I mean, everything I got in climbing was from my dad. He was so dedicated to... I mean, when I was young, he took me climbing because he wanted to go climbing.
Kris Hampton 37:53
Sure.
Tommy Caldwell 37:54
So it was kind of selfish.
Kris Hampton 37:55
Yep.
Tommy Caldwell 37:55
But at some point, it became a way more like once I got old enough that we could really be partners in climbing, he he gave so much to me to help me go climbing. And even that could be considered selfish, because you like think about that you're like, okay, so is he helping me because, you know, I think you your ego is played out through your children a little.
Kris Hampton 38:15
Yes, yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 38:16
I think it was that way for my dad. But even in that, like he gave his life to helping me be a better climber, which was selfish in some ways, but selfless in others, so there's the combination of those two things.
Kris Hampton 38:28
Yeah. Did he have regular partners when you were really young?
Tommy Caldwell 38:32
He did when I was really young. He's funny, he's such a teacher. He's been a middle school, he was a middle school teacher for 24 years that... He would find people. He would mentor them and then when they got to a point where they kind of went off on their own, he would stop climbing with them for the most part.
Kris Hampton 38:34
Really?
Tommy Caldwell 38:34
Yeah for the most part. Still, like he still climbs with like middle school students, even though he's 67 years old.
Kris Hampton 38:56
Still doing it. That's cool.
Tommy Caldwell 38:57
Yeah, he loves to just teach people about climbing and show them this world. Which I've, I have that in me now. I think that's one, I think one of my favorite parts about the partnership with Kevin is that I was mentoring him. I was taking this thing that I knew so much about and passing it on and I love that, but I think I got that mentality from my dad.
Kris Hampton 39:17
Yeah. How do you, how do you choose a partner? What do you look for in a partner? Is it something you need to go out and climb with them and determine if you guys should climb together more or is it a friendship first? You know,
Tommy Caldwell 39:34
I think it's not necessarily a friendship first. I think for me, it usually just starts with somebody else that is that is, well they can, it can be it, there can be two, two ways to do it.
Kris Hampton 39:43
Okay.
Tommy Caldwell 39:43
And the way that doesn't work as good, but this is what happened on the Dawn Wall, is that you find something you really want to climb and then you find somebody else that is just keen on doing that thing as well.
Tommy Caldwell 39:52
And so it kind of puts the climb above the partnership. That's what happened on the Dawn Wall. The way that I enjoy the most though, and that I think I will always look for moving forward, is I find the partner, the friend and then we find the climb that we want to do together. So that means that the partnership is above the climb. And if that's the case, it's just always going to be a way more fulfilling experience in terms of what I want, because I'm, because now you know, it's taking me a lot of years to get here, but now I care way more about the experience than the than the actual, like checkmark in the box at the end of the day. So that's like my, my climbs I do with Alex Honnold are way more that way. We're just like, dude, let's, we love climbing together, this is so amazing. We should get together, we should go do something. And what that means is when we go out, no matter what it is, if we fail, if we succeed, if we're totally, if it's absolutely miserable, we always come back, like having gotten so much out of the experience.
Kris Hampton 39:52
Yep.
Kris Hampton 40:49
Yeah, when when it's something like Alex and you guys did the Fitz Traverse was...and you were kind of the mentor in that role as well. You know, you guys are friends, but you were definitely the more experienced in that realm.
Tommy Caldwell 41:03
Right. Yeah, a little bit.
Kris Hampton 41:05
Is it always that way or is there a given take? Are there, I mean, I guess it's gonna be tough, because you're probably the most well rounded climber on the planet, but are there times when you feel like someone else you're climbing with is the mentor in a certain situation?
Tommy Caldwell 41:23
Yeah. I mean, like, usually, when I go out with Alex, that's, that's how it goes, actually. Usually it's, he has some, some, some climb he wants to do or we or we have something that I mean, he has like these giant lists of like, "I want to do this climb, I want to do this climb" and so sometimes, like we want to get together and climb, so we'll like, basically pull up that list and be like, which one of these should we do together?
Kris Hampton 41:44
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 41:45
And since it's his list, it's like, we won't actually pull it up. But you know, this is like mentally.
Kris Hampton 41:49
Sure, sure. Sure. Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 41:51
Since it is his list, he will take the lead. And then in terms of moving over giant swaths of technical, hard granite super fast, he's the master.
Kris Hampton 42:00
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 42:00
And so I just feel like I'm kind of drafting, you know. I'm kind of flapping in the breeze at the bottom end of the rope below him, which is amazing. I mean, it's great to be able to do that. I think I love that in some ways probably equally as much as being the leader. With Alex it is nice because it can kind of swap either way. Like if we're in a more alpine environment, maybe I'll take the lead a little bit like on the Fitz Traverse. But when we climbed, you know, three routes, the three major faces in Yosemite in a day, he took the lead on that.
Kris Hampton 42:26
Right, right. I think that's cool that you you're able to have that give and take with Alex. You know, I hadn't really until I was asking you the question I hadn't really thought about, is there a situation where Tommy Caldwell can be mentored when you're out climbing?
Tommy Caldwell 42:40
Yeah, with Alex it's definitely that way
Kris Hampton 42:42
But it totally makes sense that that would be a good partner for you.
Tommy Caldwell 42:45
Yeah. And these days, I feel like I'm mentored when I go out...umm...like, with young, strong boulderers.
Kris Hampton 42:52
Yeah, totally.
Tommy Caldwell 42:53
Sport climbers, like I learn so much from them and so I'm really, I'm, you know, I'm soaking up the knowledge way more than I'm doling it out in that environment.
Kris Hampton 43:02
Yeah, that's cool to hear. I think that's really important for people to hear too, because it's really easy to let your ego get in the way and, and not learn from the people that you're around.
Tommy Caldwell 43:13
Yeah
Kris Hampton 43:13
But there's more often times than not, there's something to learn in that situation. So yeah, you know, if you're still going out there with these young boulderers learning, then, you know, everyone can for sure.
Tommy Caldwell 43:26
Yeah, I mean, probably one of the major pieces of the puzzle that came together in the end before the Dawn Wall is that I did a trip with Alex Megos.
Kris Hampton 43:32
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 43:33
He's like 22 years old.
Kris Hampton 43:34
Yeah
Tommy Caldwell 43:34
He was like 22 years old or 23 years old.
Kris Hampton 43:35
He's phenomenal
Tommy Caldwell 43:36
And he's like, raised like a future Olympian. You know, he like trains indoors primarily with like yoga balls and on hangboards and stopwatches and I'd never done any of that stuff really.
Kris Hampton 43:47
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 43:47
And, and so I was like, maybe I should try this. Jonathan Siegrist, he is such a scientist and when it comes to training that when I'm with him, I feel like I'm learning tons. He's got the nutrition worked out, and he knows about all the science and so yeah, I mean, I think the best situation is when you can be both a mentor and a mentor...and you can be the you can be the teacher and the student at the same time in different realms.
Kris Hampton 44:14
Yeah. So something that made me really want to talk about partnership today was, and everyone witnessed it, was that you kind of hung back and waited for Kevin. And the Dawn Wall was your dream. It was your baby, you know, a giant baby, but it was your baby and, and you didn't have to do that. Do you think that that waiting, holding back and waiting for Kevin and supporting Kevin, do you think that came from your mom's sensitivity or your dad's adventure ethic or where did that come from, that you didn't just blast to the top?
Tommy Caldwell 44:55
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I don't know where it came from. I think at the time, I was thinking that it came more from like, this sort of moral standard of climbing partnership.
Kris Hampton 45:08
Yep.
Tommy Caldwell 45:09
Just simply blasting to the top would have felt quite douchey.
Kris Hampton 45:12
Yeah. Well tell me tell me about that moral standard because I think a lot of sport climbers and boulders don't necessarily understand that moral standard.
Tommy Caldwell 45:21
Yeah....um, I think it probably comes from the fact that I'm kind of old man in climbing these days and that's how it used to be way more when you go out into big mountains. I mean, I think I'm lucky enough to be in a place where I, I really understand the ethics of the old school and like when you go into the mountains and the brotherhood of that. I'm also able to understand the new school and combining all those is kind of like my sweet spot.
Kris Hampton 45:50
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 45:50
And I have to find the moral standard that applies to all those or I don't know, I guess and maybe the new school that has a much less of a moral standard generally. Like you talked about the boulderers and the sport climbers, they're not going to really compromise their own objectives for their partners for the most part, simply because they don't have to.
Kris Hampton 46:09
Right. Yeah, in most cases, you don't have to.
Tommy Caldwell 46:10
Yeah, but on the Dawn Wall we did, so it was more like a big mountain. you know, objective. It was it was like going on an expedition with somebody and you don't leave your you don't leave your buddy stranded up on the mountain.
Kris Hampton 46:21
Yeah. Are there, are there things you think that sport climbers and boulderers or this new school way of climbers could learn from that old school ethic or that, you know, alpine ethic?
Tommy Caldwell 46:35
Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of sending the gnar on the sport crag and the boulders, it's probably best to be as selfish as possible in terms of like, if that's gonna make you send the gnar.
Kris Hampton 46:43
Yeah, totally.
Tommy Caldwell 46:44
Um, but if you want the life experience that's going to be meaningful and lasting, it's gonna... you're gonna have to adopt some of the old school moral standards a bit.
Kris Hampton 46:52
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 46:53
And I think that the people who, who think of partnership first are the ones that tend to be the lifers. You know, they're the ones that are out there forever, that they're going to be the guys that are like, 80 years old, sitting in the coffee shop with their old climbing buddies, talking about the good old days, and they're still gonna be gaining from those experiences their entire life.
Kris Hampton 47:13
Yeah. And still stoked to go climbing even when they're, they don't climb as well as they did 20 years ago, but we still love this shit.
Tommy Caldwell 47:22
Yeah
Kris Hampton 47:22
Yeah, I think so for sure. You wrote something in the book that that I thought was pretty cool and it was about pitch 21, which was the final hard pitch, right? Like the last 5.13 pitch or...?
Tommy Caldwell 47:36
Yep.
Kris Hampton 47:37
And then from there, it was pretty much you could guarantee that you could go to the top in a pretty quick push.
Tommy Caldwell 47:44
Yeah, yeah. Barring something very bad happening.
Kris Hampton 47:47
Right. So you were kind of shoring up your chances and making sure that you could get it done if Kevin wasn't able to pull through on pitch 15 or whatever that pitch was that he had so much trouble on. And you..........you finish that pitch and well, even before you finished it, you wrote that you knew it was almost as important that you didn't put any more pressure on Kevin, that you do that pitch. Like you're placing equal importance on getting this last this doorway pitch done to I can't put any more pressure on Kevin, because he's got enough on himself.
Tommy Caldwell 48:29
Yeah
Kris Hampton 48:30
You know, that, in that moment especially, when it's like, I have this one last hard pitch to do, and then I could blast to the top whenever I would need to, it seems like such a, an immensely selfless act to say, "But I don't want to put any more pressure on Kevin." Why do you think you even thought of that, in that moment?
Tommy Caldwell 48:55
I think I had been feeling a bit guilty for the last four or five days when I started blasting ahead of him, in some ways, and such, like sort of the pressure I'd been building. Like it, you know, each pitch that I do, you could see the pressure building on Kevin. And so um, yeah, I don't know. And then I think immediately once I got to Wino Tower at the pitch, at the top of 21, the route was basically done for me. Like my immediate reaction was like my battles done with basically. I need to go for the team. So I think in life, you need to you need to figure out the times where you have to focus on yourself and then you need to figure out the times where you need to focus on the team. And so there's just, you're getting good at identifying those switches in moments is really important.
Kris Hampton 49:42
Yeah. Yeah. And you write in the book that when you did get to Wino Tower, which that's what you said is the finish of pitch 21,
Tommy Caldwell 49:49
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 49:50
You got to Wino Tower and you were around the corner from Kevin.
Tommy Caldwell 49:54
Yep.
Kris Hampton 49:54
And you sat there and composed yourself because you didn't really want to celebrate. You didn't want to, again, put more pressure on him. And then you were right back into that, "I'm gonna go support Kevin".
Tommy Caldwell 50:10
Yeah, I tried to like, by the time I got back to the portaledge down at the base of pitch 21, I tried to get myself mentally to a place where I was when I left. Like, "Oh, we're just we're still climbing on this thing. Like, nothing has changed."
Kris Hampton 50:22
Yeah, that's so huge man. And in the, in the book, you always, there all these passages, and I highlighted a bunch of them, but there were so many that I was just like, I'll just talk about it in general, where you talk about being able to feel Kevin's emotions through the rope, or, you know, knowing his climbing so well or understanding what's going on so well that you knew he was gonna fall a few minutes before he fell. You know, there was some sort of connection up there even if you guys weren't, didn't turn into great friends. There was some undeniable connection that was happening, and you talk about being able to feel it through the rope pretty often.
Tommy Caldwell 51:05
Yeah, I guess that's true
Kris Hampton 51:06
I mean, is that something that you were recognizing while you were up there and did that make you feel like you had this duty to support him? Was it just those ethics of...?
Tommy Caldwell 51:18
Yeah, I you know, I think it was the emotional journey, like we were doing that together. Like, when climbing, when Kevin was climbing, it was super intense for me almost the same way I was when I was climbing.
Kris Hampton 51:28
Right right.
Tommy Caldwell 51:29
I'd feel the nervousness and I think we I when I would illustrate it in the book by saying talking about feeling it through the rope, which I guess that's kind of what you think about because you're like you're trying to sense rope movement. And yeah, you really want your buddy to to do good. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's true. I mean, there was a very close bond in that way, that was not friendship, but you know, something pretty magical.
Kris Hampton 51:57
Did you guys know that like the whole...I mean, obviously, you knew, but did having the whole world watching you intensify that?
Tommy Caldwell 52:06
Um, I think, I think it intensified it for me supporting Kevin. Um, but I think I was basically already to Wino Towers by the time the whole world really like latched on to the story.
Kris Hampton 52:23
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 52:25
For the most part. I mean, it was starting to catch hold maybe a day or two before that, but, you know, I was trying to think as little about the rest of the world as possible. But when Kevin's
Kris Hampton 52:37
It's got to be hard to block out, though,
Tommy Caldwell 52:39
Yeah. Well, it's weird. I always felt like I was in a bubble up on El Cap that was just like, I was just, I've been climbing up there for 20 years or something so when I go up there, it's like, that's my space and I sort of block out the rest of the world.
Kris Hampton 52:52
You're at home up there.
Tommy Caldwell 52:53
Yeah. And I like that. That's one of the things I love about it. So that's why that's why I was so conflicted about the whole social media thing, because it would change, it changed that a little bit. But it's still pretty, mentally, pretty easy, easy for me to just think about being in the moment up there. So that's why I was so happy when my phone when I dropped my phone off the wall.
Kris Hampton 53:12
Or threw it off, whichever it was.
Tommy Caldwell 53:14
Yeah. But Kevin, he always thought about, you know, what everybody like, itt was always in the top of his mind about like, what everybody else was thinking about.
Kris Hampton 53:27
Right.
Tommy Caldwell 53:28
The climb and people rooting for him or not rooting for him and so that intensified the situation. Like when we had photographers up there, climbing, Kevin would climb so much more intense.
Kris Hampton 53:38
Oh, yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 53:39
So that made me want it more for him, because when he wants it badly, that makes your partner really badly, too. He would try so hard and that was inspiring. And he he tended to rise to the level when all the... when everything was on the line in this way that was hugely, just like, inspiring. Incredible.
Kris Hampton 53:56
Do you think that was part of why he did it initially? I mean, pulled the social media in and all of that other than just being a way to make an income out of going climbing. Do you think he knew that that having that intensity, those eyes on him would make him perform better?
Tommy Caldwell 54:15
Probably. Yeah, that's a great point. I love that point actually. I feel like that probably pegs him, yeah, really well. It was funny. We climbed on the Dawn Wall for about eight months when he first joined the project, just the two of us. And he would always top rope and he was kind of scared. And then and then our buddy Tim Kemple came up to take pictures for Black Diamond and suddenly Kevin was like, being super bold on lead.
Kris Hampton 54:40
Turned it on all of a sudden for the camera.
Tommy Caldwell 54:41
I was like oh my god. All of a sudden, he went from being like this very, like this fawn on ice to being a total badass.
Kris Hampton 54:46
Haha right.
Tommy Caldwell 54:47
And so that was probably a powerful enough experience that for the rest of the time he's like, this just helps me.
Kris Hampton 54:52
Yeah, bring out cameras.
Tommy Caldwell 54:53
Yeah, if I'm gonna get this done, I need this. I need the Kodak courage.
Kris Hampton 54:56
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 54:57
Yeah, which is easy to judge but maybe it's not such a bad thing you know.
Kris Hampton 55:00
Yeah, you know, I, my fiance always tells me that when I'm... when we're bouldering, and I'm struggling on something, but then a group of people walks up, she knows I'm gonna send, because I just like to perform. I like to be in front of people and I flip a switch and I'm able to turn it on, so so I know those are my moments. Like, some people don't like the crowd, and they shy away and they perform better that way. I know when the crowd comes up, that's when I should get on you know, and maybe Kevin knew the same thing going into it.
Tommy Caldwell 55:28
Yeah it's funny, I really, I really aspire to find the flow state, which in my mind means blocking everything out, so I think I tend to not like the crowd that much. When everything is like at its optimum, like when you're achieving that flow state, which is really rare for me. But I like the crowd too sometimes, Like it's funny when I'm bouldering in my woody at home, and I like have a project, these projects that I worked on for weeks, just on my little woody at home, if I'm getting close, I'm like, I'm not quite doing it, sometimes I go get my wife and I'm like, just come hang with me. I need like the girl power. Hahahaha.
Kris Hampton 56:00
Hahaha, absolutely, man and I think the flow state something interesting, right, because you know, in the moments that I've entered it, there's almost always a crowd around, but I don't, I don't hear them. I don't notice them. Or I can like pick out my daughter's voice. Or I can pick out my fiancee's voice. And then, and then when I get to the top, it's that moment like or when I get past whatever I needed that state for, it's like all the sound floods back in and all of a sudden, I can hear everyone and I'm like, whoa, where were all those people a second ago? You know so....
Tommy Caldwell 56:37
Yeah, I've experienced that. Although I think probably my most powerful moments in the mountains are, well, some of my many of my most powerful moments are when I am all alone and I guess I'm just a little bit more of an introvert that way.
Kris Hampton 56:49
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 56:50
I'm like too self conscious around other people.
Kris Hampton 56:52
Yeah. Do you think
Tommy Caldwell 56:53
Sometimes it blocks flow.
Kris Hampton 56:54
Just out of curiosity, I know Alex is somewhat introverted, I mean, he's an introverted guy, but obviously, there's a lot of cameras around for a lot of these things. Are you and Alex able to like get into your own bubble, regardless of the cameras when you guys are out climbing?
Tommy Caldwell 57:15
You know, we haven't climbed around cameras that much honestly.
Kris Hampton 57:18
Okay. Okay so just on the couiple things you see in films.
Tommy Caldwell 57:20
We climb too fast for cameras
Kris Hampton 57:21
Yeah, good point.
Tommy Caldwell 57:22
I mean, the cameras will be there on the top. Or we made this is funny, there's this, this film project that I was involved in. It's my greatest film, like my, like, I love this film. Out of all the film projects I've been involved in this "Line Across The Sky" is kind of my favorite.
Kris Hampton 57:38
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 57:38
And I think it came out so good
Kris Hampton 57:39
You guys filmed that
Tommy Caldwell 57:40
Yeah, it came out so goodec because we didn't think we're making a film.
Kris Hampton 57:42
Right, right.
Tommy Caldwell 57:43
We had a camera that, you know, our buddy told us to bring a camera and shoot footage. So we were doing it sort of begrudge... begrudge....begrudgingly.
Kris Hampton 57:50
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 57:50
And but we only pulled out the camera occasionally and we just kind of were goofing off with it. We were like there's no way they're gonna make anything out of this anyways. We're probably not even going to succeed, so we were just being goofy and being totally ourselves.
Kris Hampton 58:01
Yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 58:01
And I think that was the magic behind that film is not understanding that we were making a film haha.
Kris Hampton 58:06
Haha yeah.
Tommy Caldwell 58:08
So it made it so that we were just talking like we normally do. We weren't speaking to the audience to the greater audience at all.
Kris Hampton 58:13
Right, right. Yeah, I think that's pretty big. I hadn't really thought of it like that, because that's what I liked about it, was how candid it was, and the honesty in it. And knowing that you didn't even know you're really making a film, that wasn't your intention, that makes total sense.
Tommy Caldwell 58:29
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 58:30
Yeah. That's pretty cool. So what's your climbing looking like these days, as far as you know, are you are you finding enough to fill you up like the Dawn Wall did? I mean, did that leave a void?
Tommy Caldwell 58:46
I feel like in climbing, I'm floundering a little bit because I realized I just have too much on the plate to focus as intensely on climbing as I used to. That's because I was writing the book, which I just finished.
Kris Hampton 58:57
Yeah, yeah
Kris Hampton 58:57
Yep
Tommy Caldwell 58:57
Like honestly, I wrote the book and then I did the tour and that ended like a week ago.
Tommy Caldwell 59:05
I'm fresh off
Kris Hampton 59:06
Fresh off the tour.
Tommy Caldwell 59:07
This is the first, yeah, this this week, right now, I'm, for the first time, I'm like, wow, this is the first time in over a decade where I don't have some super crazy project that I'm sort of leading up to.
Kris Hampton 59:17
Yeah, and then this podcaster guy is like, "Hey, on your on your break..."
Tommy Caldwell 59:23
Haha, no, this is nice actually. For the moment, it's nice. I know that I really want those projects to focus in on. Like, I like I like the life that that formats a lot but I think I've realized that I need a break from that right now. And I and I, and sometimes that focus comes at the expense of other things in life, like being a good dad.
Kris Hampton 59:47
Sure. Sure.
Tommy Caldwell 59:48
That's more what I'm trying to focus on right now.
Kris Hampton 59:51
Yeah, I think that's smart. And I think, you know, it seems like from reading your book and from talking to you now that Becca is gonna keep you on that path, regardless.
Tommy Caldwell 1:00:02
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 1:00:03
You know, I think that's important to have like, the yin to the yang. You're this super focused person and she, she's well rounded and you know, can keep it all keep all the balls in the air at the same time and you know, that's super important to have so you're a lucky dude, for sure.
Tommy Caldwell 1:00:19
Yeah, that's for sure.
Kris Hampton 1:00:21
Yeah, cool, man. Well, I appreciate you coming over and sitting down with me and even though you just came off this crazy tour, and
Kris Hampton 1:00:28
Oh no problem
Kris Hampton 1:00:29
Getting your life back.
Tommy Caldwell 1:00:30
No, this is nice. This is mellow. We're just hanging out in your backyard chatting, so it's good.
Kris Hampton 1:00:34
Yeah, I appreciate it, dude. Thank you.
Tommy Caldwell 1:00:36
Yeah, no problem. My pleasure.
Kris Hampton 1:00:40
Thanks to Tommy, again, for coming out and sitting down with me. You know, I know he was jam packed during the Climbers Festival and he had the family there and he had just come off tour, so it means a lot to me that Tommy, you know, took the time out to sit down and have this thoughtful conversation with me. So thanks to Tommy. You can find him online at Tommycaldwell.com. Of course, he's on the Instagram and the Facebooks and probably on the Twitter as well, even though I'm not. And if you haven't checked out "The Push", go do that. Seriously, it's one of the best, you know, best climbing books, climbing literature. I hesitate to even call it a book. It's bigger than that. I think it's a memoir and I think it's one of the best that I've read in a long, long time. So go check out "The Push". And again, if you buy it through our site, through the blog post for this podcast episode, we get a little bit of kickback. Doesn't raise your price at all, it just helps us out and we appreciate any of that help. Bozeman, Montana, we're coming for you. Talk to the folks at Spire, get signed up. We'll be there November 13 through the 19th doing a live podcast with Kelsey Sather. Really excited to meet all the folks up in Montana. I've heard so much about the great community there. Stoked to come up and meet everybody. You know where to find us. Powercompanyclimbing.com. We we've got training programs there. We've got our new Process Journal is out. Definitely go go see if anything on the site fits you. Hit us up. We've got some spots in our online training. Nate's got some open spots. Check us out. You can also find us on Instagrams and on the Facebooks and on the Pinterest @Powercompanyclimbing. Different feeds all over the place, so please follow us on all those platforms. It's kind of willynilly, but it's all different. I hate the cross posting thing. I used to do it. Not a big fan anymore. You can go look for us on the Twitter as well. However, you will never ever ever ever ever find us on the Twitter because we don't tweet. We scream like eagles.
35 years after he realized one of his own dreams and jump started the dreams of so many others, we REWIND to this conversation with legend Paul Piana.