Episode 123: Board Meetings | Top 5 Reasons for Climbers to Strength Train

It's become accepted that climbers should be lifting weights if we want to maximize our athletic potential. But why exactly? We have lots of reasons, but these are our top 5.

This Board Meeting is a little different. Since our board has grown, so should our Board Meetings. In this episode, rather than Nate, I'm talking to our Strength and Conditioning Coach, Paul Corsaro. The format you've come to know and love is alive and well, and Nate will return soon, but since Paul is an expert in this topic, it seemed like a no brainer.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:01

Hey everybody, Kris here. Today's Board Meeting is a little bit different than ones we've done in the past. Instead of Nate, I'll be talking with our strength and conditioning coach Paul Corsaro. And I just didn't want all of you who are expecting Nate's smartass remarks and one liners to to be surprised when he wasn't here. But he'll be back. 

Kris Hampton  00:56

I'm your host, Kris Hampton. 

Paul Corsaro  00:59

And this is Paul Corsaro. 

Kris Hampton  01:00

And together we form Hans and Franz. You're familiar? 

Paul Corsaro  01:06

Yes. 

Kris Hampton  01:07

Okay. If any of you out there are not familiar, turn this off now and just go Google "Hans and Franz" and watch some of that shit. We're here to pump you up. We're sitting here in the I don't even know we didn't decide on a name for this thing. The Power Company spaceship, I guess?

Paul Corsaro  01:26

That's the only logical option. Yeah.

Female Speaker  01:28

It's the Starcraft.

Kris Hampton  01:29

It is the Starcraft. She's right.

Paul Corsaro  01:30

Starcraft.

Kris Hampton  01:31

 It's a Starcraft slide in truck camper in the Red River Gorge. And Paul came down from Chattanooga to revisit the Red, which is where you spent some fun college years. 

Paul Corsaro  01:44

College, high school, yeah, spent a lot of time here. 

Kris Hampton  01:46

Yeah. And just so we could record some podcasts and climb on some amazing sandstone and you brought the good weather with you. So 

Paul Corsaro  01:53

Yeah, as we sit in the camper with the rain coming down 

Kris Hampton  01:55

Well it was good all day. 

Paul Corsaro  01:57

Sure.

Kris Hampton  01:57

So I'm fine with the rain at night as long as it's good during the day. You want to tell the folks what the topic is today?

Paul Corsaro  02:05

Cool. Yeah. So we're gonna talk today about some of our top five reasons why we think strength training is important for the sport of rock climbing.

Kris Hampton  02:13

Yeah. And for those of you who don't know, Paul already, Paul is a strength trainer. You just took the CSCS right?

Paul Corsaro  02:21

 Yep. 

Kris Hampton  02:22

Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist test.  Have you gotten the results back?

Paul Corsaro  02:25

Yeah, I passed it. 

Kris Hampton  02:26

Okay, so Paul's now CSCS as of very recently. And Paul's one of the most effective coaches I've ever watched teach how to strength train. In fact, my wife will not listen to me at all. But she loves to be coached by Paul. So I like it when Paul's around and I should just shut my mouth more while Paul's around. So. So if you ever have the chance, and you're in Chattanooga, to visit Crux Climbing, and Fitness... is that it is called?

Paul Corsaro  02:59

Crux Conditioning

Kris Hampton  03:00

 Crux Conditioning, then you should definitely do that. And then take a session from Paul and go hang out and check out the facility. He's got a Tension Board in there. What else is happening in there?

Paul Corsaro  03:13

Yes, we got kettlebells, barbells. We got a Tension Board. I'm working on getting a campus board in there as the climbing season comes in. That's getting delayed a little bit, but um, that'll be in there. And then you know, we've got some cool stuff happening the next year ,as well. 

Kris Hampton  03:27

Cool.

Paul Corsaro  03:27

 Starting to build it out for just all physical training and physical training and climbing performance.

Kris Hampton  03:33

Yeah, so looking at more climbing space in the future at some point?

Paul Corsaro  03:36

Yep that's the plan. 

Kris Hampton  03:37

Cool. And like Paul just said, his, his facility is based quite a bit on strength training, and Paul knows what the fuck he's talking about. So we're gonna come up with our top five reasons here. Number five. And I feel like this is a pretty popular one lately and for good reason. That resiliency and injury prevention is a really great reason for climbers to be strength training. Why climbers in particular? Why should they be strength training as a means of prehab injury prevention?

Paul Corsaro  04:11

You know, pretty much a strong joint is going to be not... is going to be less likely to be injured. Um, you know, we have the opportunity when we're strength training to get into some of these joint positions a bit more controlled than we normally would say, you know, you're climbing and you know, you're in a hard gaston move and foot pops and you just put all your weight on that shoulder without any warning. You know, if you've built up preparation in your tissues to handle loads like that, there's, you know, a higher probability that's going to be less of a problem when you've spent some time in controlled situations loading the tissue, stressing the joint and signaling your body to adapt to handle those positions and forces.

Kris Hampton  04:51

Yeah, totally. And those forces are can be really big. Like, you might think, "Oh, climbing isn't that much force. It's not like I'm dynoing and crashing down on holds every move." But all it takes is one move to completely wreck your shoulder or wreck your elbow or wreck your fingers or whatever.

Paul Corsaro  05:08

Yeah, just from a basic, you know, physics perspective, if you're fully extended, you know, all that force that's in your fingers, you know, you've got that whole distance from you know, where you're attached to the rock to your shoulder joint, that's just multiplying the force. So, you know,

Kris Hampton  05:23

Yeah, pops off and forces are massive. 

Paul Corsaro  05:26

Yeah, it's not good.

Kris Hampton  05:27

 And most of you out there have shit footwork. I've seen mostly rock climb, so

Paul Corsaro  05:32

I might be part of that group sometimes.

Kris Hampton  05:34

Haha, Actually, I say that as today, I had a foot blow in the middle of a hard move, and crashed down on my shoulder, but it was fine. You know, I was able to catch it, reel it back in and keep climbing.

Paul Corsaro  05:47

Maybe it was strength training, who knows? 

Kris Hampton  05:48

It could have been strength training. So why why strength training instead of like, doing a million little band exercises, and all of these little weird prehab, internet sensation type exercises,

Paul Corsaro  06:06

Um, strength training is gonna kind of put you in a context that's gonna be a little bit more relatable to what you're doing actually, outside. You know, a lot of those band exercises will train your stabilizing muscles as movers. You know, you'll see those internal external rotations, ad infinitum. They're great. But at some point, you know, let's, when we've been talking about the shoulders a bunch, so we'll just use that as an example. Your rotator cuff is meant to stabilize and pull that arm, the the humeral head into the shoulder socket, and keep it from moving up, down, forward back, but keeping it centered in the joint. And you know, a lot of those band exercises and this just one example, train those muscles to create movement instead of resist movement and keep stuff in place. So you know, strength training, say just will take an overhead press for an example, you're using know your deltoid muscles and a lot of other muscles responsible for getting a weight overhead, and your rotator cuff is being recruited as well to keep that humeral head centered in the shoulder socket and you know, keep everything you know where it should be, in a way similar to when you're climbing and pulling. You know, you're not really rotating out against the wall with your rotator cuff. You're pulling hard with your lats or your posterior deltoid, something like that. But your rotator cuff is working to keep everything where it should be in the joint, keeping everything nice and centered. So strength training is good analog to that.

Kris Hampton  07:29

Right. And it's not like one we're climbing, we're isolating the rotator cuff while using the holds. It's all working together. 

Kris Hampton  07:36

So why not learn that way under a controlled load that's, you know, that gets heavier and heavier as you go?

Paul Corsaro  07:36

Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  07:44

Exactly. 

Kris Hampton  07:44

That's more and more and more volume or whatever it is. 

Paul Corsaro  07:47

But yeah, that and that's kind of I guess the whole key to all of that is you can plan your volume or plan your intensity and, you know, slowly build that over time. And, you know, one of the key principles of strength training is it's the SAID Principle, which is specific adaptation to impose demand. So, you know, you choose the demand you impose on those tissues and you get how you select that adaptation.

Kris Hampton  08:07

Right. That's how you adapt.

Paul Corsaro  08:07

 Yep. 

Kris Hampton  08:08

Yeah, totally. And, you know, we have been using the shoulder as an example, but this applies to knees and hips and 

Paul Corsaro  08:15

Anything

Kris Hampton  08:16

Any, any part of your body, you know, we use it all climbing. And you might hear people always talking about shoulder injuries or elbow injuries, but we hear just as many people with knee injuries, hip injuries.

Paul Corsaro  08:30

I mean, I bet everybody out here has heard of someone who's you know, thrown a heel hook and pulled too hard. 

Kris Hampton  08:35

Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  08:35

Felt the hamstring pop, felt the knee get a little grumpy or a lot grumpy. 

Kris Hampton  08:39

Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  08:40

So it's not just yeah, the upper body. Lower body is definitely a big factor in climbing performance.

Kris Hampton  08:45

Yes, super important. I heard...Crimp, if you're out there, I heard you at the crag today say that you're... I know you were joking...but maybe you weren't. I can never tell with you. But say, "I'm super strong actually. I can benchpress my body weight." And I'm like, "Well, you know, that's part of being strong." But there's a lot more than just bench pressing. Especially for a rock climber. You have to be strong in a lot of ways. 

Paul Corsaro  09:12

Actually, most of that is more than just bench pressing if you're a rock climber, in my opinion, yeah.

Kris Hampton  09:17

Yeah, I'm not picking on you Crimp. But, you know we love you. And so what about climbers who are injured already? Should they strength train?

Paul Corsaro  09:27

 I think you....

Kris Hampton  09:28

I know that is a loaded question.

Paul Corsaro  09:29

I would say you need to see someone with doctor in front of your name first or in front of their name first. But, um, if you were cleared, and you're working with a, either the clinician or someone the clinician has referred you to, strength training could be a great way to start kind of getting back to where you want to be.

Kris Hampton  09:47

Mm hmm. Yeah, I think so. I agree. And there are some great climber doctors out there who would recommend this and they're great people to see. So look into those people. 

Paul Corsaro  09:59

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  10:02

One of the...that kind of leads us right into number four, because we're talking about strengthening big muscle groups and sort of building armor. I've always liked the term "building armor" around your joints.

Paul Corsaro  10:16

Who is that... Dan John has the Armor Building Complex? 

Kris Hampton  10:19

Yeah,I think you're right. And, and that brings us to number four, which is it sort of saves the time on your fingers and on your, on the tendons

Paul Corsaro  10:32

 Absolutely. So yeah, you know, if you're able to generate more force through your legs, pull with your feet more, you know, throw that heel and not have the knee explode on you. 

Kris Hampton  10:40

Yeah and understand how to pull with your lat instead of just yarding, with your shoulder and your elbow

Paul Corsaro  10:46

Bringing your elbow up towards your ear. Yeah, but yeah, using your big muscles, you know, your glutes and your hamstrings, and your lats are some of the biggest muscles in your body. And if you're not utilizing those, to the highest ability possible, you're gonna just keep moving further up that chain to rely on smaller, not less important, but they're less strong muscles. So you're gonna have to be, it doesn't make sense to use the smaller muscles to generate a whole lot of force when you can practice using the larger muscles to take a lot of that burden off.

Kris Hampton  11:17

Yeah, and that's... we covered a lot of this in a previous episode with you, where we talked about why you should use good form when strength training. So I think a lot of people are just under the impression that like, "Oh, if I lift more weight, I lift more weight. It doesn't matter about good form." And, you know, to some degree, there's a little bit of truth in there. But learning good form while lifting weights, if lifting weights is not your sport, then that's just going to help you learn how to pull with the bigger muscles, or drive off the bigger muscles when you're rock climbing,

Paul Corsaro  11:56

Or just even develop the ability to keep the ideal body shape while you're trying to pull. How many times do you see people kind of collapse forward in that hunched position when they're pulling hard instead of staying tall, keeping the chest out. You know, I'm working with some folks in Chattanooga right now who have some shoulder issues if they hunched forward, round out, let those shoulders go. But you know, over the last couple months, they've worked on keeping everything, you know, tuck nice and back when appropriate, keeping the chest up and tall. 

Kris Hampton  12:25

Yeah

Paul Corsaro  12:26

And that let's them not only generate more power, but their shoulders feel a little bit better.

Kris Hampton  12:31

Yeah, fingers are our attachment to the rock. I mean, that's we want the fingers to get strong. So why is it important to have less time on them and save them?

Paul Corsaro  12:42

 So you can use them

Kris Hampton  12:43

I mean why shouldn't we just, I mean, Daniel Woods got all fucking swole by just pulling on little holds, why shouldn't we?

Paul Corsaro  12:50

Most of us aren't Daniel Woods. We don't have we don't have that adaptation ability

Kris Hampton  12:55

Hahaha what do you mean?

Paul Corsaro  12:55

 Or genetic mutants and freaks. And yeah, you know, um, you know, a lot of us like to go outside and rock climb a whole bunch. And I think you know, especially with fingers, minimal effective dose is the best way to really go about it. Do what you need to do to get stronger. Be patient with it. Do it frequently, but not a lot. You know, you know, you got a lot of tendons and non muscular musculature involved in all that and those adapt a lot slower. Where we can spend more time working up the chain, you know, our shoulders, lats, glutes, hamstrings, which will also feed forward into being able to pull harder, and climb harder moves without using as much of the non muscular tissue on our fingers and attachment points.

Kris Hampton  13:41

Right. And Daniel Woods has been climbing since he was three or four and his body has developed specifically to rock climb, because that's what he's, that's the demands he's given it.

Paul Corsaro  13:52

Right. 

Kris Hampton  13:53

And, and unless you've done that, your body's just not going to respond the same way, so it's a really slow way to making your body stronger. 

Paul Corsaro  14:02

Right

Kris Hampton  14:03

 I mean, you it can be done.

Paul Corsaro  14:04

If you've got the time, it's great. But yeah, a lot of us at the at certain points in our lives, we don't have that time anymore. 

Kris Hampton  14:10

Yeah. And if you're starting climbing at 20, 30, 40 or later, your fingers need more time off. 

Paul Corsaro  14:19

Yes,

Kris Hampton  14:19

They're not going to take the same sort of volume that Daniel Woods did when he was 10 years old.

Paul Corsaro  14:25

You're not going to be stressing that as you go through puberty because I don't know about you, but I don't get a second puberty coming.

Kris Hampton  14:30

Haha. No, I don't think I do. I hope God I hope I don't.

Paul Corsaro  14:33

Haha yeah that would not be ideal. 

Kris Hampton  14:36

Gross. And any other... like when your strength training, I've seen some people make this mistake and this is kind of kind of ties into this, how do you feel about doing things that combine the two? Like small edge weighted pull ups and things like that? Is that the same? Is that a middle ground that maybe we shouldn't even be in? How do you feel about things like that, combining fingers plus big muscle strength?

Paul Corsaro  15:10

I think they're appropriate at certain points in a training program. Like we'll have people do or I'll have people do, you know, we'll do our strength training mixed in with some fingerboard work. Kind of all together, kind of super set, or groups of three, Steve Bechtel has proposed some of that

Kris Hampton  15:27

Yeah the integrated strength

Paul Corsaro  15:27

You know, I've gotten that idea pretty much directly from him.

Kris Hampton  15:30

Yeah, it's a great way to schedule a session.

Paul Corsaro  15:33

And I think, you know, building through all that, but I think, you know, after a cycle of that, some moderate weighted fingerboard pulls are a good way to go about it. I know, we've we've talked with Blake about that. He likes those a lot. I like those a lot. I think they're appropriate. I don't think they're the foundational way to go about that. I think they're kind of a good icing on the cake after, you know, six to eight week plan building a foundation below that. 

Kris Hampton  15:59

Yeah

Paul Corsaro  16:00

So I don't think they're necessarily wrong. I just think that it needs to be applied at the right time and place.

Kris Hampton  16:04

I agree. I like I like isometrics for finger strength, like if you're just focused on that. And then I really prefer movement based strength training. You know, I know, some people are really into isometrics and they can be really effective. I have seen some of the research on it. But climbing is a movement sport, so you're not going to be holding a position for more than a couple seconds at a time, ideally. If you are, you're either onsighting, or you're doing something really wrong most of the time.

Paul Corsaro  16:40

Yeah, there's some really interesting things happening with isometric stuff going on right now. 

Kris Hampton  16:40

Totally

Paul Corsaro  16:40

I mean, we've all seen it out there. Um, I think they're going to be really useful going forward, especially with assessing and testing and kind of getting a good profile of where people are starting a training program, coming out of a training program. But just like everything, they're a piece of the puzzle, they're not the whole deal. 

Kris Hampton  17:01

Yeah. And I think they're valuable.

Paul Corsaro  17:03

 I'm excited to keep digging into it and learning more about it. 

Kris Hampton  17:05

Sure

Paul Corsaro  17:06

Yeah, cuz it's gonna be a valuable tool. 

Kris Hampton  17:09

Yeah, I think so. And I do like to combine the two, like you said, as kind of icing. This, you know, you've you've trained these isometric finger strength exercises, you've trained movement strength training and then combining the two with heavy edge pull ups or something like that can just help people break through that sort of a mind, a mental block of "I can hold this hold, but I can't move off of it." You know, if you just get them started moving for a few sessions they're usually good to go. 

Paul Corsaro  17:43

Yeah and a lot of that just habit, you know, you've gotten so used to hanging a hold and just, you know, during not letting your hands open up, or keeping that good hand shape, keeping the half crimp. You know, in climbing, you're not just there. You've got to move off of it. So just a lot of times just breaking that pattern of, yeah, I'm not just holding this hand shape, but I need to actually do something with it. 

Kris Hampton  18:03

Right

Paul Corsaro  18:04

 It's more coordination aspect than anything

Kris Hampton  18:06

Totally. And that's why I really appreciate movement in general. 

Paul Corsaro  18:10

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  18:11

That takes us right into number three. Saving your fingers in your tendons is one of the things we really focus on, because it's so easy to injure your fingers and I've talked about this in several episodes now. We see a lot of young climbers who learn to climb in the gym, learn to just launch to holds when they're tiny. And then as their bodies get heavier and they're climbing on smaller holds as they get better, they launch to holds, crashdown on holds and they're just destroying their fingers. You know, the forces get multiplied massively, wrecking their tendons,

Paul Corsaro  18:52

Fingers, shoulders, as they you know, lose the hand, the shoulder comes out. 

Kris Hampton  18:56

It all just gets wrecked. And one thing that we really love strength training for is our number three, which is tension development. Talk to me a little bit about kind of the, and this is sort of the core of our rooting drills and our practices. But talk to me a little bit about kind of the core fundamentals of..... core fundamentals is not a pun. It totally sounds like it should have been though

Paul Corsaro  19:25

Core fundamentals of core tension. Is that what you were going to say?

Kris Hampton  19:27

Wish I had caught that as I was saying it, but I didn't. Haha

Paul Corsaro  19:30

Haha

Kris Hampton  19:31

Yeah, talk to me about those core fundamentals.

Paul Corsaro  19:34

Yeah. So I think you know, in terms of strength training for tension, and we even say we even talked about it in the description for rooting exercises. It's kind of a nebulous concept at first. There's a lot going on, you know, there's a lot going on just with the with the rooting drill, and then you take into account how wildly different different boulder problems can be right next to each other. Like there's a lot to consider.

Kris Hampton  19:56

Yeah, I just had somebody the other day say, "There aren't any boulders in my gym suitable for rooting", and I was like "There aren't any boulders in your gym not suitable for rooting." So

Paul Corsaro  20:07

Yeah, that's just yeah, it's there, it's all different and it's gonna be tough to take like a repeatable, repeatable drill in a different context, every time you get on the wall. That's where strength training to practice, the skill of developing tension can be really handy. You know, every time you do a single leg deadlift, you're doing a single leg deadlift,. That skill, the movement is the same, you know. Over time, with repeated repetitions, you can get better, zero in on certain points where you're losing some tension or where, you know, maybe the hips are shooting up faster than the knee, or something like that. So you know, it's a great way to kind of simplify the task to really focus on the skill,

Kris Hampton  20:47

Simplify the task to focus on the skill. That's a really cool way to say it. Yeah, it takes a second for my brain to wrap around that, but but it totally is. It's it's not as complicated as climbing. So you're simplifying what you're doing so that you can focus on tension. And that includes breathing. It includes not just your core. You know, core was some silly punny thing there, but it's not just your core. There's tension all the way from your toes, how you contact the ground, to your fingertips. 

Paul Corsaro  21:23

Exactly

Kris Hampton  21:23

You know, and that's that you really learn by learning to move realy fucking heavy weights, because you can't do it without that sort of tension.

Paul Corsaro  21:34

Absolutely, you know, you just take a heavy barbell deadlift. Let's just kind of look at what's involved there. You've got to drive to your feet, you've got to feel your whole foot. So you know, you're not just rocking back on your heels, having your toes come up off the ground, because then you're gonna fall backwards, and or lose your positioning. You got to extend through your glutes and hamstrings, straighten your knees, you got to keep a tight core throughout it and at the top to make sure you don't either fold forward or extend too much. You've got to keep your shoulders plugged in and back. See again, so you don't round out at the upper back. And you've got to keep your hands and grip engaged, so the bar doesn't roll out of your hands. 

Kris Hampton  21:39

Yep

Paul Corsaro  21:41

So you know, but at the same time, that's different than your left foots on a small foothold, your right foots on a sloping foothold is pointing away from you. While you have to turn that right knee in, make sure you push away with the left hand and hit the two finger pocket, right where you need to hit it, as opposed to missing it. And then, you know, catching that, holding the swing, bring your foot in. I'm just trying to think of a really complicated climbing move because there's so much going on there.

Kris Hampton  22:35

Sure. Yeah there's so many parts to it. 

Paul Corsaro  22:36

Yeah, you know, you do that, then you have to do that another tensiony move, which is everything's going to be different than the move you just did before. Where in a deadlift, you know, you did rep one, cool. We're gonna do another rep that's the exact same thing. Cool, try and tighten everything up we just did. Nothing's gonna change movement wise. Just try and get a little bit better the next rep.

Kris Hampton  22:55

Yeah, and I think that's, you know, you just kind of brought up a really important point that with climbing the moves change, every single move. You know, unless you're really honing in on some projects, where you're just being repetitive, which is totally fine. But even then, move number one is a different sort of tension than move number two is different, than move number three, and you have to be able to apply it through all of these body positions. And even when you learn it through strength training, it still has to be practiced when you move to climbing. I hear some people get frustrated, when they've gone through a cycle of lifting weights getting stronger. You know, objectively, they've gotten stronger, and then they go out and they climb and they do one session and they're like, "It didn't work. It's not transferring. I don't feel any stronger while I'm climbing." And I'm like, you had to practice that for three months. It's not just gonna, in one day, switch to a different sport, and all of a sudden, it's there. You're gonna have to practice how to do it. You've got more ability, like you've you've leveled up your, your, your ability to create that tension and be stronger. Now you have to learn to apply it and that can take some time. For some people, it happens really quickly, especially if you've practiced it in the past. For some people, it's a little slower and that's totally fine. But tension is a practice thing, whether it's a simpler task and and I'm not saying simple task, but a simpler task, like deadlift.

Paul Corsaro  24:43

Yeah, simple doesn't mean easy.

Kris Hampton  24:44

Right.

Paul Corsaro  24:44

Simple doesn't mean not effective. 

Kris Hampton  24:45

Totally. 

Paul Corsaro  24:46

A lot of times simpler is the better way to go about things.

Kris Hampton  24:49

Absolutely. And I think it is. You learn it simple, and then you gradually apply it to more and more complex movements.

Paul Corsaro  24:56

And the cool thing about simple strength training too is you know, strength gains will stick around for a while. So it's important not to, like you said, lose your mind or panic when you know, your first day out after a training cycle things don't go well, you know.

Kris Hampton  25:12

Right.

Paul Corsaro  25:13

That that your raw ability to generate force, which is kind of what you've been doing with strength training, you know, generate force in a coordinated way, that's not going to disappear after two days, you know.

Kris Hampton  25:25

Right. And the other good news is that, you know, back to number four on our list. The, I don't know about you, but the first thing generally, to get really fatigued on me are my skin and my fingers.

Paul Corsaro  25:38

 Yep.

Kris Hampton  25:39

 So if I want to save my fingers, and still be able to train, still be able to get stronger during my training cycle, then going in and swinging some heavy, heavy kettlebells or lifting heavy things off the floor is a really, really good alternative to going bouldering again.

Paul Corsaro  26:00

Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Kris Hampton  26:04

You want to take a break before we move on to number two? 

Paul Corsaro  26:06

Sure. Let's do it. 

Kris Hampton  26:07

Alright, break. Hey, everybody, Kris here again. I just wanted to give you all a few updates on what's coming up in spring of 2019. Actually, two days from now I leave for Australia, where I'll be doing Oz Tour 2019. That includes live podcasts at Sydney Indoor Climbing Gym Villawood and at North Walls in Melbourne. I'll also be doing workshops at both of those gyms plus at 9 Degrees Lane Cove, Urban Climb Collingwood and at Portside Boulders in Perth. I'm also running a coaching workshop at Portside. And you can register for all of those at PowerCompanyClimbing.com/oztour. I hope to see all of you out there. And if you see me at the crags around Australia, please come and say hello. Shortly after I return from Australia, Nate and I will be teaching a pre conference workshop at the CWA Summit in Loveland, Colorado, and that will be titled "Coaching Tools for Growth." That's on May 15. I'll also be speaking at one of the conference sessions, titled "Quality Practice and Growth Mindset." You can register for the CWA and you should if you are a coach or in the indoor climbing industry at climbingwallsummit.org. I hope to see you all there. One more thing this coming spring, the Performance Climbing Coach Seminar is on again, May 18 to 20th in Fort Collins, Colorado. That's immediately after the CWA Summit. Early bird pricing is still available, so if you want to save some money, get in on that. We've got all the regular coaches, we've added a few more. You should go check out everything that's going on at the Performance Climbing Coach Seminar at performanceclimbingcoach.com. 

Kris Hampton  28:06

All right, back to the show. And we are back. Paul just handed me a Ten Fidy Imperial Stout. Yes, "fidy" a D. I wasn't just talking like a rapper still. 

Paul Corsaro  28:23

Wait, you rapped?

Kris Hampton  28:24

I rapped.  Ten Fidy Imperial Spout...... interior .......Imperial Stout. I can't even talk. Shout out Oskar Blues Brewery. We don't have sponsors on the podcast, but we will accept free beer Oskar Blues, just so you know. Alright, we are on our number two. And, you know, I get I get a ton of emails from people telling me that they want to train and these are the things they need. And the number one thing I hear is "I need more power. I need more power. I've been campusing but I'm not getting any more powerful. I don't understand." What do people need Paul? To gain power?

Paul Corsaro  29:07

They need some strength.

Kris Hampton  29:09

 Say it again. 

Paul Corsaro  29:09

They need some strength,

Kris Hampton  29:10

They need some motherfucking strength. Y'all need to be stronger to get more powerful. It's just a fact. That's the way that it works. Power is strength times speed. So all of you who aren't strong, physically strong, if you can't move heavy weights, and you get on the campus board, you might learn to campus better. But you're not necessarily going to be gaining much power because you haven't gotten stronger. And it's debatable whether you gain power through campusing anyway, depending on how you're doing it. That's another podcast. So let's talk a little more about that. Why do we need power first off?

Paul Corsaro  29:52

You know, as routes get harder, as boulders get harder, things being less static or things you're going to be less static, or you're going to have to be a bit more punchy to hold, or explode off your feet, just you know, that's going to be the most efficient way to do certain moves. You know, so it's gonna increase your success of climbing a boulder. 

Kris Hampton  30:15

Totally. You look at the best boulderers in the world and, you know, I once wrote a blog that if, if there were any blog I would take back, it would probably be this one. However, I still do stand by it for the majority of climbers, that jumping is hurting your climbing. I think most people use it as a crutch. But jumping is also a skill and being powerful while you climb is a skill. And if you watch climbers like Jimmy Webb, even Daniel Woods, even though he can lock shit down at his waist, better than any other climber on the planet

Paul Corsaro  31:00

Still jumps a lot.

Kris Hampton  31:01

 He's also a really powerful climber. And he can employ that when he needs it, because he's strong. And you look at any of today's top boulderers, and they are super strong, but they also know how to use power. 

Paul Corsaro  31:17

Not even just bouldering. You know, climbing certain sections on a route might be more efficient

Kris Hampton  31:21

Sure 

Paul Corsaro  31:22

To cut feet and move fast through sections, instead of doing a slow, you know, slow, long lock off for three moves in a row, instead of just jumping through too. You know, it's gonna be faster, maybe a bit more explosive in the short run, but you're saving a lot of energy as you work through that route.

Kris Hampton  31:38

Yeah, and I think so many people make the mistake of saying, "I need more power. I'm going to the campus board, because I've heard that's the way to get more power." But if you don't improve your strength first, it's just not going to happen. So my opinion, like the campus board should be in the back of the weight room at the gym. You should have to walk past all the weights to get to the campus board to remind you that you need to get stronger.

Paul Corsaro  32:04

Campus board can be a good power tool, but I think it's a really good demonstration of the power you already have. 

Paul Corsaro  32:10

You could strength train for a while and not touch a campus board and you could go out to the campus board and you'll probably hit a PR. You'll probably get that 1-4-7 or 1-5-9 or something like that without even touching it.

Kris Hampton  32:10

Yeah, yeah

Kris Hampton  32:20

Yeah, with a little bit of coordination practice, you're definitely going to.

Paul Corsaro  32:23

Yeah

Kris Hampton  32:23

Like learning to use the campus board. So I would suggest for all of you people who think, "I need to be more powerful", don't go straight to that damn campus board. You're... if you think you need to be more powerful, you're likely to get hurt on the campus board. And don't get me wrong, I've got a campus board in my in the Machine Shop, so I think it's a valuable tool. I don't necessarily use it in the classic way. So, I think ignore the campus board for a while and get stronger, lift some weights.

Paul Corsaro  32:59

Yeah. So you know, I'm going back to the equation where power is force times speed, you know, instead of just working on the speed aspect of it, or the power aspect of it, just focus on that F, the force part. You make that bigger, everything else is gonna rise. 

Kris Hampton  33:18

Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  33:19

Or power is force times time, technically. So if you bring up your force, your time of that movement is going to go down, you're going to be more powerful that way.

Kris Hampton  33:27

Yeah. And you can practice that in your climbing, practice learning to move faster, learning to pull the trigger, learning to apply that force that you've learned through weight climbing, which is something we've already talked a little about.

Paul Corsaro  33:39

 Yeah, absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  33:40

So that's our number two, if you want to get more powerful, you're going to have to get stronger first. All right, we are on to our number one reason why climbers should strength train. And I should probably say right here that while we did decide on an order here, depending on who you are, that order could change. You know, for me, I think this is the number one reason. I had strength trained and spent enough time in other sports that required tension enough in my athletic career, that the top the top four weren't quite as important for me as this one. But any of you who listened to the podcast know already that I've battled with learning to really give 100% and learning to try hard, is quite a bit easier, like you said before with tension development, if the task is simpler.

Paul Corsaro  34:47

It creates creates a less complicated context for doing stuff. Like you know, you know, when you're doing a hard deadlift, you don't have to worry about being above your bolt. You don't have to worry about falling you know, even if if you're not worried about falling, you don't have to worry about boinking up after falling,

Kris Hampton  35:04

Right. You're not limited in that situation by this slopey hold and the humidity. 

Paul Corsaro  35:10

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  35:10

And just sliding off. You know, you get to, you have a great opportunity to really learn to give it all and try really fucking hard. 

Paul Corsaro  35:20

Yep. And you know, if you've ever done a heavy, near limit deadlift, it feels like that rep takes forever.

Kris Hampton  35:27

 Yeah, you have to really grind it out.

Paul Corsaro  35:28

 You're trying hard for an hour. And you look at the video and it's like, "Oh, I picked it up in a second and a half."

Kris Hampton  35:32

 Right

Paul Corsaro  35:33

It does show how time is indeed relative, but yeah, it's good to, itt's a good, good context for trying hard.

Kris Hampton  35:40

And how long do you think, in someone's strength training journey, how long do you see it normally take them to get to really trying hard? Because there's definitely some, like learning the form, getting comfortable, "Oh, now I'm picking up heavy weights and still making gains, like every week"

Paul Corsaro  36:04

I would say, if you're coming into it completely new, six, six to eight weeks. Because you know, you've got a good, you could probably build a good three to four weeks in of, you know, working on sets of five to eight, at least, you know, working on where it's, you know, say if 10 is the hardest... 10 out of 10 is the hardest thing you've ever done. Working up to maybe sets where you are maybe at eight out of 10 is kind of where you're looking at.

Kris Hampton  36:25

Right. 

Paul Corsaro  36:25

And you know, after six weeks of that, yeah, maybe it's time to start looking at maybe a two rep max or three rep max. And, you know, it's cool to get one rep maxes, and you know, I'll be the first say I like to test my one rep max on things from time to time. I think or from a performance side of things, I think a three rep max is going to be a better viewpoint of where you're at. Because, you know, very rarely in climbing do we have to be, do we have to demonstrate limit level strength just once.

Kris Hampton  36:55

 Right

Paul Corsaro  36:55

We need to do it over and over again. And also just the three rep max gonna be a bit safer. 

Kris Hampton  36:59

Yeah, totally. I just had an athlete recently, 13 year old athlete, mind you, who is very intelligent about her, her climbing and her training. Her coaches had told her, "Just try harder. You're not trying hard enough." And she asked me, "I'm pretty sure if I try harder, I'm going to hurt myself"

Paul Corsaro  37:23

Climbing-wise, or lifting or .....? 

Kris Hampton  37:25

Climbing

Kris Hampton  37:26

And, and she's probably right. You know, I've watched her climb enough that she tries really, really hard. And I think that that's an important thing to understand. But not many climbers do understand that. You know, we we tend to go like you just said in your first cycle of strength training...<cough>......you might go.....<cough>....Jesus Christ, I can just cut it out, babe. Haha. You go, you tend to get to about 80%, eight out of 10. And that's still sport climbing level, you know, that's not two move, three move bouldering. That's in the like 90 to 100%. Rarely to 100%, but in the 90% zone. So 80% could still be a relatively moderate sport climb.

Paul Corsaro  37:26

Gotcha

Paul Corsaro  38:24

 Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  38:25

You know, or if, for instance, if you are a V10 is your very top level, how many V8s have you done? You know, that's 80%. So that's what most people hit in their four week cycle.

Kris Hampton  38:38

 So what I heard you saying there was if you're only lifting weights for four weeks, don't expect that that's taught you to try really, really hard yet.

Paul Corsaro  38:38

Right.

Paul Corsaro  38:50

Right. You know, and a lot of other proponents of strength training in climbing have said that, you know, we're looking at 10 to 12 weeks for the changes to happen, to really stick around.

Paul Corsaro  39:00

Like it isn't something you can do a couple weeks here and there and expect to.... you may see some some changes happen, but you know, you're not expect to see lasting change stick around unless you really kind of commit, you know, 10 to 12 weeks of actual training, stuff like that.

Kris Hampton  39:00

Right

Kris Hampton  39:16

How much do you think that this, like, give it all, try hard is a neurological thing versus and, you know, fibers being recruited, versus just learning to to really try hard. Does that make sensse? Is that.... I mean, I think this is a tough thing for people.

Paul Corsaro  39:39

I think it's a little of both. I think it starts with the physiological aspect of it. Like you know, we've got these organs in our muscles or in series with the muscles called our Golgi tendon organs which respond to, you know, the tension our muscles generate, and they're kind of like the restrictor plates for how much force we can generate.

Kris Hampton  39:56

 Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  39:57

And over time, these can be desensitized to the tension in our muscle so, you know, if you generate a lot of tension frequently with your muscles. So what the Golgi tendon organ organ does is it works on a reflex with your spinal cord, your nervous system and all that to help...not necessarily help, but it will limit the amount of tension you can generate.

Kris Hampton  40:18

Right

Paul Corsaro  40:19

And in reflection to the tension you are trying to generate so 

Kris Hampton  40:22

It is sort of a governor 

Paul Corsaro  40:23

Exactly, yep. So if you strength train a lot, you that organ can get desensitized, so you're getting less of that governor and less of that restriction on the force you can generate. So from a pure, just force expression viewpoint, you'll be able to try harder that way. And at the same time, you're going to be able to work on the mental aspect of being comfortable with the feeling of trying hard, because you know, if you're not used to that, that's a scary thing to, scare thing to feel like, especially on climbing where you hear stories about people getting hurt and stuff like that. And, you know, at your limit, it's scary when you're trying hard on, you know, a small edge and doing a big pull off of two fingers or something like that. 

Kris Hampton  41:05

Yep

Paul Corsaro  41:05

So I think you know, they both play a, play a part. That's another one I think it depends on the person.

Kris Hampton  41:12

Yeah, I know, there's been no research into this or my guess is that there's been no research into this. I've not seen or heard of any. Do you think that the Golgi tendon organ, which essentially, is playing safety for you, like it thinks, "If I produce this amount of force, at this moment, it's unsafe, so I'm not going to allow it." Through strength training, you convince it that it's safe and it allows you to do more and more and more. Do you think that transfers over to situations in climbing as well? This is just theoretical

Paul Corsaro  41:54

 I think so. As in where it plays like kind of a governor on like, certain climbing moves, or...?

Kris Hampton  42:01

Yeah. And then if you've released that governor a little bit through strength training, do you think that then transfers over to harder moves in climbing? Like I have to apply this amount of force

Paul Corsaro  42:12

I think so because I don't think your lat really knows whether you're climbing or doing a really hard pull down on a row or something like that. 

Kris Hampton  42:20

Sure. 

Paul Corsaro  42:20

We know and, you know, there's a lot more. That's simplifying it an incredible amount. But you know, your muscle doesn't have a brain in it.

Kris Hampton  42:28

Yeah. And I think that goes way back.

Paul Corsaro  42:31

I'm hypothesizing again.

Kris Hampton  42:33

Sure 

Paul Corsaro  42:33

Research could come out or we could come across research that says.... I reserve the right to be wrong here, but

Kris Hampton  42:38

Totally, totally, We reserve the right to be wrong in all several hundred of these podcast episodes. 

Paul Corsaro  42:44

Yeah. But I think so. I think, you know, that's kind of why we have try hard skill is you know, that number one is I think that...if we had to kind of dig to find a physiological or another sort of that sort of viewpoint on this, I think that's why,

Kris Hampton  42:59

Yeah, I think that, you know, kind of harkens back to our number four, where we talked about learning to really use the big muscles as opposed to just yarding off your fingers. Because like you just said, your lat doesn't know if you're pulling on an edge, or on a pulldown bar or rowing a barbell. So if you've learned to use your lat, and you've learned to, if you've gone really heavy, and you've taken that governor to new levels, where it's saying, "Okay, this is safe, this, this level is safe. Now this level is safe. Now, this even heavier level is safe" and it's allowing you to do these things, then when you get on an edge and have to pull that governor doesn't say, "Nope, this is unsafe."

Paul Corsaro  43:50

Yeah. And then you'll pull as hard as you can and end up half the way there. You'll pull as hard as you can and you'll get all the way there because

Kris Hampton  43:57

Yeah. Because you're pulling with your lat instead of just with your fingers.

Paul Corsaro  44:00

 Yeah. Or just expressing the amount of force you need to get there instead of just limiting the amount of force.

Kris Hampton  44:06

Right. Exactly.

Paul Corsaro  44:07

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  44:08

Yeah, that's, that's super interesting. I'd never really thought about, you know, I had heard the Golgi tendon organ referenced with like campus work, trying to desensitize it, so to speak, to to use the term that you were using, but I never really thought about it with strength training and how that transfers

Paul Corsaro  44:30

Yeah it is basically just a tension regulator, or parking brake, pretty much.

Kris Hampton  44:36

Yeah, yeah. That's cool. And, you know, for me, this was something really, really important and I already mentioned that but I think a lot of climbers don't understand that they aren't trying hard. So can we just spend a few seconds defining what trying hard is because there there is a big difference between maximum effort and and exhausting yourself. Like try hard is not  "I've been doing the same move for the last 45 minutes, and I can no longer hold on and I've failed". That's not trying hard. Trying hard is giving 100% effort over just a few seconds. And I think a lot of climbers miss that, especially where we....we are in the Red River Gorge right now, so trying hard here is getting really pumped, 

Paul Corsaro  45:39

Hanging on, doing more moves

Kris Hampton  45:39

Hanging on for as long as you can and then doing more moves. And to me, that's what trying hard was.  For years, that's what I thought trying hard was. And it is, it is giving an extreme effort. But it's not giving maximum effort. It's giving a very moderate amount of effort over a long period of time. And that's a whole different thing than we're talking about. And you can learn that via strength training, as well. 

Kris Hampton  45:49

Agreed. Would you think trying hard has a different definition for where people started rock climbing?

Kris Hampton  46:17

Say that, say that again. Clarify that.

Paul Corsaro  46:19

Say someone's or how they started rock climbing. So say someone bouldered and has only bouldered, you know, for their life.

Kris Hampton  46:26

Yeah yeah yeah

Paul Corsaro  46:26

 And then they went to the Red River Gorge and you know, where it...the demands of climbing, for most of the routes....you know, you're always gonna find exceptions, but for most of those routes are a little bit different than you know, a five move maximum effort boulder problem, would you say?

Kris Hampton  46:43

I do think they have different definitions. However, I think that as climbers like being taught that we should always try to be as efficient as possible sort of skews a lot of people away from learning to try really hard. We're always trying to find a way to smooth the move out, or at least I and this is totally me talking through my lens, you know. I'm always looking for a way to make it smoother, a way to make it easier. 

Paul Corsaro  47:14

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  47:15

 That's starting to change. And actually, I think you might have seen a little of that today with like, "Oh, I'm just going to revert to the jump and see if the jump works. I'm going to be more powerful through this move."  and then thinking "Oh, I think the jump is the way.". Like as soon as I try it, I'm like, "That's the way. That's easier." Me three years ago did not think the jump was easier. Me three years ago was like, "I'm gonna do everything I can for the next week and a half to try to avoid this fucking jump." So I think learning to really try hard in that one moment, is something important that a lot of rock climbers just never get.

Paul Corsaro  47:55

Yeah. Yeah. And strength training is definitely a way to do that.

Kris Hampton  47:59

Yeah, for me, it's been huge. You know, really lifting heavy weights, coming back to that after having done it as a as a teenager mostly, and young 20s, learning it then but then coming back to it now that I've that I've learned how to be a good climber, and then apply that "Okay, I can try really hard to pick this really heavyweight up a floor. Now I can try really hard to coordinate the tension and the movement to make this move happen." Those two are really similar.

Paul Corsaro  48:40

And you're not alone. We've had a lot of people down in Chattanooga who have started lifting weights and stuff and they've realized that they've been able to try harder on boulders around the Chattanooga area, just from you know, making that association between trying hard lifting weights, and not even necessarily the same muscle groups, but finding that same feeling. You know, it's again, a nebulous concept, but finding that same feeling and, you know, pulling through stuff, and you know, making a bigger reach or driving through those feet a little more, and being a bit more uncomfortable and being okay with it.

Kris Hampton  49:16

Yeah, and it's a practiced thing, right? Like getting uncomfortable and still putting a big amount of effort in is a practiced thing. And in Chattanooga, you guys have summers that fucking suck for rock climbing. Like nobody's going outside rock climbing unless they are just trying to do a bunch of easy volume or they're really gluttons for punishment. But if they come into Crux Conditioning, then they can lift heavy barbells, swing heavy kettlebells, do heavy hangboard sets

Paul Corsaro  49:49

 Grab wooden holds on a Tension board

Kris Hampton  49:51

Yeah, yeah. And learn how to...practice how to keep that try hard going over those some months when going outside is all about  "I'm going to be sliding off of the holds every moment" you know, and you don't actually.... you never get to try hard.

Paul Corsaro  50:12

Yeah, it's a good way to keep keep that aspect of your climbing game sharp.

Kris Hampton  50:18

I hadn't thought about your facility that way until just now and that makes it even more important in my mind. So if you're in Chatty, check out Crux Conditioning. Most definitely. People can find you on the Instagrams, the Facebooks

Kris Hampton  50:35

Crux Conditioning.Yep. So follow Paul on there. He's got great videos. I won't call them motivational videos because that's a whole sub genre of its own. But you see people working out early in the morning and really getting after it and for me that is motivational to get my ass in the gym. And you can find us at...you can find you as well at Cruxconditioning.com, is that right?

Paul Corsaro  50:35

Crux Conditioning on both

Paul Corsaro  50:37

 Yep.

Kris Hampton  50:39

And check out the.....oh it just fucking slipped my mind. What is the what was the blog series you were doing? 

Paul Corsaro  51:12

Oh. Bullet Points and a Brew.

Kris Hampton  51:14

 Bullet Points and Brews. Yeah, check that out. Paul is a beer man. He loves good beer and he just brought me, like I mentioned before, this Ten Fiddy. Oskar Blues, holla at ya boy. And it just pairs some bullet points about what he's seeing with a good beer that he's recently checked out. So check that out. Cruxconditioning.com Crux Conditioning on Facebook and Instagram. You can find us at powercompanyclimbing.com. On the Facebooks, on the Instagrams @PowerCompanyClimbing Are you on Twitter?

Paul Corsaro  51:52

I'm not.

Kris Hampton  51:53

Haha that's perfect. Because we don't tweet. We scream like eagles.