Josie McKee | Part 1: Sport Climbing to Train for Big Walls and Narrowing Failure

Josie McKee has been climbing for more than 20 years, racking up speed records, FA’s, and a huge wealth of experience and knowledge in that time. She’s been up El Cap more than 20 times, even working on the YOSAR team for 3 years. Now based in Lander, she found herself with limestone sport climbing as her primary means to train for a recent Yosemite trip. This is the first of 2 episodes where Kris and Josie discuss how this trip and prepping for it forced Josie to really consider her relationship with climbing – especially in Yosemite – and her identity as a climber.

Photo: Drew Smith

After years of pushing her limits, Josie eventually reached a point of intense burnout in her climbing, which led her to dig deeper into sports psychology and mindset training. These days, she wants to share what she’s learned with other athletes as a mindset coach, in order to help climbers reach their full potential while continuing to enjoy the sport they love.

Photo: Drew Smith

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:

• Dealing with anxiety, performance pressure, fear, and ego in climbing.

• The importance of training skills that transfer across different climbing styles.

• How Josie has embraced sport climbing coming from a trad background.

• How Josie organized and focused her training (using sport climbing, bouldering, and strength work) in preparation for a big wall trip.

• What it means to broaden your definition of success and narrow your definition of failure.

• Josie’s strategies of setting intentions for attempts and naming the enemy when dealing with anxiety.

Photo: Jenny Walters

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:36

What's up everybody? I'm your host Kris Hampton. Welcome to the Power Company podcast brought to you by power company climbing.com. Today, we've got part one of a really interesting two parter. Our guest is Josie McKee, who is founder and coach at Mind Athlete. She's been climbing for over 20 years, worked on YOSAR for three years, has climbed El Cap over 20 times, and holds speed records in Yosemite, the Sierra, the Winds, and Patagonia. So she's a capable climber. Josie is based here in Lander and was training for a trip to Yosemite by limestone sport climbing, which personally, I think is really smart. But having been a traddie myself is something that I know a lot of climbers will not at all understand. Especially the young traddies who believe that trad climbing is so much different than sport climbing. So initially, that's what I wanted to discuss here. And we do, we discuss how she prepared how she thought it would go. And then after her trip, we come back and we talk about how it actually went. But we went deeper. Josie's history with Yosemite and the walls there is complicated. So there were some big things wrapped up in this trip. The most interesting to me, and one that most of us will wrestle with at some point, is our identity as climbers. This is part one, part two, next week, let's get into it.

Kris Hampton  02:22

I kind of want to just jump into this because last night you and I both spoke at a storytelling event, the Houlihan Narratives. We were talking on the theme of origin story. And there were a couple of things from your, your story, as well as the intro that Amy gave for you, that I assume was something you provided? Is that right? 

Josie McKee  02:51

I did, yeah. 

Kris Hampton  02:52

That got my wheels turning a little bit in terms of what we were going to be talking about today. And I think it was just an interesting exercise and talking through origin stories and history and, and how history can can change what comes out of it based on the context it's used in, you know, like I said last night, it can be used to inspire can also be used to hold people down or hold back progress when we mythologize it too much. And in Amy introducing you, she said that you had moved on from spending all of your time in the mountains and on big objectives, because you didn't feel like it was helping you grow as a climber anymore. And you switched into essentially, sport climbing in Lander Wyoming in order to prepare for those big objectives. And that sort of flies in the face of what a lot of people think, is the way you know, just the other day, Chris Kalous posted on Facebook. What if all this time sport climbing has been the best training for crack climbing? And I'm like, Yeah, you mean other than bouldering? Of course it is. But I don't think a lot of people believe that. So I'd love to talk through what you're going through right now.

Josie McKee  04:32

Yeah. So I think that even the the story that you just brought up the concept of me like pushing bigger and bigger things over and over again. It was basically a point where I was climbing the next big thing or trying to do it faster. Almost every time I went rock climbing. Yeah. And it bred this just chronic anxiety because I think I wasn't strong enough for it. And it was because it was anxiety around performance pressure, more than actually fear of getting injured, although that was in there as well, sure. But I wanted to do things that I probably wasn't capable of I was pushing myself too hard. And realizing that these little windows of time that I would physically train, whether it was some time in a gym, or bouldering, or sport climbing, that would reduce the pressure that I would put on myself, like I would feel prepared and capable. And in the midst of some of that really hard time, in my rock climbing, when I was really pushing, I realized that I was challenged with this anxiety that would just come up it was, it was probably worst, when I was hanging out on a belay ledge. It wasn't bad when I was climbing, but it was like thinking about climbing, and decided I needed to do something about it started working with a mindset coach. And she asked me during one of our conversations, Josie, what's the most fun rock climbing that you can imagine doing. And it's like a limestone sport climbing for sure. Like I love climbing on granite. But it's also just a lot more fun to be able to try harder moves. And to not worry about the pressure of getting to the top of some wall or sending each pitch on a wall. Because it's just like it accumulates all the different steps of the process. And so being able to just enjoy the movement go up, come back down. You can try harder. And so you get stronger in the process.

Kris Hampton  06:47

Yeah, yeah, you can try harder, partly because you've reduced a lot of that anxiety that's built up not only from the pressure of having to best your time, or do something bigger, do the next obvious objective, but but also, because you're not 3000 feet off the ground, you know, there's not a complicated system that you're dealing with, you've reduced a lot of the chaos around it. So you can focus more on the movement. Where I, where I think a lot of people can't make the leap. And I'm just curious your thoughts here before we dig in more into the the mindset of it all. Where a lot of people can't make the leap is the movement can be pretty different from limestone sport climbing to granite crack climbing. And people can't see the carry over there. What were your thoughts around that?

Josie McKee  07:54

Well, I would say that, to a certain point, you need to develop your craft climbing skills, and know how to jam all the different sizes. If you're just talking about pure crack climbing, but really pure crack climbing. There's very few pitches of like hard pure crack climbing, especially on granite. And so once you've mastered those skills, you've reached a certain point and then at a level, I would just just to throw a number out there. So people have a perspective somewhere in the 512 range. I think the blend of being able to competently move on any type of rock is gonna carry over to like the crimps, the pockets, the throwing heel hooks, as well as jamming. They all kind of are going to lend themselves to any style that you're on. And I mean, people made fun of me for a while, make fun of me but I think are also inspired a little bit when they watch me climb some of the stuff around here, where I'm jamming on limestone, of course makes it easier. Yeah, but they tease me and like Josie, there's a jug right there. Why are you jamming? And I'm like, well, a hand jam is a jug. Yeah, like more so than a jug is a jug, especially if the majority of the climbing that you're doing on that pitch is jugs, you'd rather relax and use a different position. The other thing that pocket climbing is so similar to particularly is climbing on pin scars, which is a lot of the harder pitches in Yosemite. They were seam cracks and then they got blown out as people hammered pins into them.

Kris Hampton  09:43

Yeah, they're essentially manufactured pockets. Totally.

Josie McKee  09:47

So Wild Iris is great training for that.

Kris Hampton  09:50

Yeah, totally. And you know what occurred to me when I heard that last night is like you had gotten to a level on big objectives, trad objectives, mountain objectives, where your skills were strong, but going and doing more hard sport climbing adds breadth or depth to your skills. That's pretty hard to get on big wall climbing or, you know, big, scarier objectives. And I think that's what a lot of people are missing. It's not just the, the movement, it's not the technical aspect of heel hooking, or of doing a drop knee or something. When you're sport climbing, or when you're bouldering, there are so many more opportunities to make a decision from a much wider set of variables. When you're jamming, you're just like, Okay, what's the next size, I need to jam on this next move, and then this one, and then this one, and then this one. And they're, you know, crack climbing skills are really pretty simple in comparison to bouldering skills, sport climbing skills, and I'm separating those, but really, they're not separate, you know, you're using all of the skills that you're learning. And the things like decision making and using momentum and all of these bigger principles of, of climbing well, you get to practice far more often while sport climbing than you do just doing another granite crack in a slightly different size than the last one you did.

Josie McKee  11:43

And even when you're, you're trad climbing, especially on bigger objectives. Even if you're not on pure crack, right? There's so many other variables in the mix that are time consuming, I mean, just the aspect of placing gear is time consuming. Yeah. And so you aren't utilizing that time to learn new moves. And so to progress as a climber in the, in the pure movement as a climber, and being able to intuitively trust your movement, you have to explore a variety of different rock types and types of climbing and then try harder moves a lot. And you're not going to spend time trying harder moves a lot when you're dealing with all these other variables.

Kris Hampton  12:24

Totally. We watch something like the Dawn Wall where, you know, Tommy and Kevin are trying to sideways dyno over and over and over. That's the, that's like the .001% of big wall climbing. Yeah, you know, is trying the hard move over and over. It's so much more construction work and labor. Beyond that. I'm curious, when you moved into sport climbing as a way to, and you're using it now as a way to prepare, and we'll get into that in a little bit. But how did you avoid that same...Or did you avoid that same ‘I have to do the next hardest thing, the next biggest thing, the next obvious objective.’ It's almost set up more to draw you into the next grade. 

Josie McKee  13:27

Yeah. I don't know, I think, I think part of it is because I'm not actually that strong of a rock climber. Like, chasing the next grade for me is not checking any big box that anybody cares about. Like, I've done a handful of 5.13s. So like, it's not anything to write home about, you know. So I think there's some element of the like, social pressure is off. Whereas climbing where I had gotten into it, climbing in Yosemite, was setting some speed records and like doing these things that were… it was an ego thing.

Kris Hampton  14:12

And you were getting that that ego was being built up because of, partially because of outside pressures as well. You felt like people were watching. That's really interesting, I think.

Josie McKee  14:25

It's hard for me to admit that right now.

Kris Hampton  14:28

Well, I mean, that's a, that's a real thing. And I think it's smart to admit that and it makes the switch to sport climbing make a little more sense because a lot of people will go toward Trad and be able to soak in more of the adventure aspect of it. And there's less pressure because now all of a sudden for people switching from sport to trad, the grades are way lower for them. You know, I'm like, Oh, I'm a 5.12 sport climber. Oh, I'm a 5.9 trad climber. You know, so the like, the pressure isn't as much, it can be more about the adventure. But for you, the Trad side was more pressure because of your status in that world.

Josie McKee  15:15

Yeah, I think a little bit, I think I realized that. So for a number of years, I was taking the winters off of climbing and going surfing. And I'm like, not really that good of a surfer. Like if you put it on a scale for climbers that are listening to this, like, I'm like, maybe a 5.9 or 5.10 surfer, like I could surf. But like, I'm not shredding out there, surfing big waves. And I'm having fun with it. And that's kind of how I feel a little bit about sport climbing is like, I'm not trying to do the best of anything, I'm just trying to get better and trying to enjoy the time that I spend out doing it. And that break from climbing into that surfing taught me that, that to do something that I'm bad at, I think, yeah. 

Kris Hampton  16:02

How did it teach you that?

Josie McKee  16:05

Um, I think what was easier for me with surfing is that it's so much more individual, like you don't need a partner to go do it. And I would just stay out in the water, trying to get better at something, some element of my surfing. And where I was spending all this time in Baja surfing, was a small group of people that were there for a month or two in the winter. And you got to know all these people. And a few of the guys started kind of taking me under their wing, like coaching me a little bit, they'd be sitting on the beach watching. And I'd come in and they'd tell me something, some piece of advice. And like, one of the things that I remember specifically was just nail your takeoff every time because you don't get anything else on the wave if you botch your takeoff. Right. And so, I mean, it seems obvious, but hearing somebody articulate it that way, it was like, okay, that's what I need to work on, I just need to, every single wave, I need to make the take off, and then I can do whatever else I want. And being able to find those little bits of ‘I'm going to focus on learning this,’ I think, took the pressure off of, of trying to perform in some way. And I think I've transferred that to climbing, where I don't, I mean, every climber cares about the redpoint. Right. But I've spent a lot more time thinking about what I learn or what I want to learn, what I want to get out of each attempt on something.

Kris Hampton  17:52

That's really interesting. I think that's why a lot of people would be able to drop the ego moving from sport into tread is because they are essentially becoming a beginner again, you know, and that's what you were doing was surfing. And I fell out of love with trad climbing myself for really two reasons. And one of those was that I felt like I had sort of run out of growth potential, just chasing harder crack climbs. The other is that a lot of the trad climbers of that era when I was trad climbing, were very adamant that trad climbing was harder than sport climbing. And you know, and I'm just like, No, it's not, it's really simple in comparison, you know, I go into the gym, and these dudes are doing, you know, incredibly complicated things. And then I go out here and I do the same jam for 60 feet, you know. And, and that's a gross simplification of all of it, you know, but those are the reasons I fell out of love with it. And it, it warms my cold little heart to see people like you, people like Brittany, all sorts of really good crack climbers who are really good in the mountains, also embracing sport climbing and bouldering and these other aspects. And we've seen it for years where, you know, the Ethan Pringles or the Sonnie Trotters, who are really good sport climbers, can just go get on a hard crack and do the damn thing. You know, so it surprised me for a lot of years that we weren't seeing more people do the crossover thing. Were you like, did you see any of that going on and think about that, or was this purely a ‘this is not a healthy place for me. I'm just for fun. And I want to learn,’ so you moved away from it?

Josie McKee  20:07

Um,

Kris Hampton  20:08

I don't know what the valley scene is like. So I'm curious.

Josie McKee  20:11

Yeah, I mean, I think there's both of those things come into play, as well as just wanting to be somewhere different. I knew that I'm not a very, like strong and powerful rock climber, and I wanted to see what I was capable of. If I developed that skill set, so yes, like, go sport climbing train, see what that's gonna do. Because I've plateaued with my physical capability, like, probably for a decade of climbing like the same grade, basically, having not read pointed anything harder than I had onsighted, which just shows that there was a lot to develop there.

Kris Hampton  20:55

Yeah, that's exactly how I was when I was a trad climber. Yeah.

Josie McKee  21:02

And then, yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't having fun anymore. I was dreading going rock climbing for probably a year or so. All right, I had gotten to the point where it was just like, I love rock climbing. I know I do. But I can't find that anymore. Yeah. And so doing something different with it. Something that I could love again.

Kris Hampton  21:28

Is, I don't know the timeline of this. So will this be your like, first real foray back into whatever your objectives are in the valley? After having spent a lot of time as a sport climber?

Josie McKee  21:47

Yeah, definitely. Um, I went last year, but I had also, I hadn't been training for very long last year before I went, I had had ankle surgery about six months before the trip to Yosemite,

Kris Hampton  22:03

and it makes crack climbing tough. 

Josie McKee  22:05

Yeah, Well, and actually, the, the crack climbing wasn't that bad. My ankle was healed to that point where it was like, okay, and cracks. But I was still really scared to fall on low angle stuff. Yep. And so I couldn't step into my, like, trihard zone at all on that trip. So it was fun to go back. And I definitely noticed that even. So I started climbing again after my ankle surgery in August of last year, and then went to Yosemite in the beginning of October. So it was a, it was two months about, of climbing again at all after four months off of climbing. And I trained pretty hard and got there. And I noticed that I was stronger than I had been on certain things that I was climbing, but my head, wasn't it? Sure. So it was it did work. And I think now going back after a solid year of training, and feeling like my ankles solid and feeling really psyched about the progress that I've made as a climber. Yeah, I think this is gonna be the first time that I can like really apply that cool set of skills.

Kris Hampton  23:24

Are you willing to talk objectives? Like, well, you? Don't you don't? You? Can't you totally feel free to say no, I'm, I'm just curious. We can be broad and dance around the actual thing. 

Josie McKee  23:37

Yeah, So Partially, because I don't really know how I'm gonna feel when I get there. Yeah. I have some ideas in my mind. But really, I just kind of want to go warm up on some things that I've done before, see how it feels. See how partners come together? Because climbing something big. I found like you could go do it with whoever's capable of it. But I don't really want to spend that much time with somebody that's just capable of it. I want to spend that time with somebody that I really enjoy the dynamic with.

Kris Hampton  24:13

Well, tell me this, if you will. Is the is the potential objective? will it fall in line with harder or faster or bigger than what you used to do? Which direction are we trending?

Josie McKee  24:33

I would say that what I'm trying to do is see how much harder like physical grades that I can. I'm not necessarily like checking a number box, but like, Can I send some harder free climbs? It's kind of the general objective. Yeah,

Kris Hampton  24:51

Perfect. And when you you go to Yosemite, you realize you're stronger. You come back here You're sport climbing? What does that look like for the year? Are you purely just trying to climb harder sport? Are you also training in the gym? I want to get this stuff out of the way before we dive into the How are you dealing with the pressure in the mental side of it? But what does the training look like? I'm curious.

Josie McKee  25:25

And so for the last few months leading up to now it well, August ish, so we're in the end of September, or close to the end of September, I don't know what day it is mid September,

Kris Hampton  25:38

September somewhere.

Josie McKee  25:40

So for a while I was focused, I was sport climbing bouldering in the gym lifting Don't you know, a couple of training sessions in the gym, per week. And the focus was really on getting more getting stronger, more powerful. Projecting things at that kind of second tier was something that I've been training with Alex Bridgewater, and something that we had talked about a bit. Because I think that that makes you a better climber. And it's also really important to have the skill of being able to redpoint things quickly if you're going to try to redpoint things on walls. And it's something that again, like I said, I hadn't really redpoint it harder than I'd onsight it until a few years ago. And I'm not, I would say I'm not that great of a redpoint climber, I'm getting there. But that was a skill set that I wanted to work on. As well as I think that that space of trying things that are under your limit, and trying to send them faster is probably the best space to develop your skill set as a rally to get better at movement to get more trusting of your intuitive movement on hard moves.

Kris Hampton  27:01

Yeah, it allows you the space, you know, you're you don't have the chaos of a limit movement for long periods and things that are really really hard that take all of your focus. Instead, you can work on the tactics, you can work on the the mindset of doing something quickly, when you don't have it totally dialed in. It's such an important space for climbers. And maybe not given enough credit by a lot of folks,

Josie McKee  27:32

people don't like to do that. Because it's stressful on the ego to to not send something like first go second go when it's it's not that big grade, it's not your limit grade. Yeah. But again, it goes back to just having that kind of beginner's mindset about it. And like, Okay, I'm gonna try to do this thing and see if I can do it in three tries or something like that.

Kris Hampton  27:58

I think that's a smart place to be. And one reason for that is, I've encountered a lot of really experienced rock climbers who really don't know redpoint tactics very well, because they've spent a lot of time either in their on site zone, or below that. And you don't need to, or they've, like mega project did, and you know, spent 70 days on something, but never like five days on a thing. You know, and, and the tactics are wildly different for each, you know, length of project. So I think it's a really important place to go, especially if you have the kind of objectives that you do.

Josie McKee  28:43

Yeah. Yeah. So that's been one of the focuses and then transitioning this last six weeks or so before going on the trip has been more endurance focused, doing a lot of like, up and down climbing and laps on things that are pretty easy climbs, just so that I know that my body can withstand movement for you know, 1000, couple 1000 feet over like, a half day or full day of climbing.

Kris Hampton  29:16

You mentioned to me last night that you're going to go to Vedauwoo for a few days. Is that a like brush up on my granite skills type of a climbing trip or something totally separate?

Josie McKee  29:34

Well, part of it is I'm going to do a photo shoot. But it's also i i said yes to this because I figured it would be a good time to spend on granite and remember how to put gear on the rock because I haven't been doing that much lately. Yeah, and I know that each time I've spent time away from track climbing. The thing that I'll wind up with is I don't always put the right piece in the crack first go, sometimes it's the second piece that I pull off my harness instead of like, Oh, I know the size and put it in and go. And it usually takes me, I don't know, three or four days of trad climbing again to remember how to do it. And so this will be a good intro to that. I have my mind set on something that I got on last year also that I'm kind of curious how it's gonna feel.

Kris Hampton  30:29

I do love me some Vedauwoo. Even though I'm not in love with trad climbing anymore. I still love Vedauwoo.

Josie McKee  30:35

It's cool. It's a beautiful spot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cuz you lived in that area for a bit. Right?

Kris Hampton  30:39

Well, I just spent like two weeks every summer there for like, 12 years. I just loved it. Yeah, so I'm a little jealous. Okay, so you're spending all this time sport climbing, you're gonna brush up on just some basic trad skills. Right Before you go. Do you think? Or are you concerned about how those same old pressures and self imposed requirements that you put on yourself to be a certain person when you're there? Are you worried about those popping back up?

Josie McKee  31:30

Sure, yeah. I mean, there's, there's definitely a possibility that those will pop up. And I think I've spent a lot more time being able to focus on that aspect of my climbing and being able to articulate it as this having a mentality of both enjoying the movement on the rock and learning something, when I go rock climbing, like those are the main goals, and trying not to attach some, like clipping the chains sending the pitch at as my success, because there's so many variables that can interfere with that being successful. One of the one of the concepts that someone told me a while back that has really resonated with me is to broaden your definition of success and narrow your definition of failure. And then you're so much more likely to succeed to find success in whatever objective you're doing. And so I think I've spent a lot of time paying attention to what that means for me, both in my climbing my projects here sport climbing, as well as visualizing what it's going to be like when I get to Yosemite and what that broader definition of success looks like for me now.

Kris Hampton  32:54

Yeah, I like the the narrow your definition of failure part of that. I've always been a fan of widening your definition of success. But I had never thought about narrowing failure. Can we talk through that a little bit, just this, this concept of not only having clipping the chains, or topping out as being success, because I think this is a tough place for a lot of climbers to parse things out. We we do engage in a sport that is very, you know, goal oriented, success oriented, you click the Change, you top the boulder, you send the route, you win the competition, whatever it is, you know, you know, we even have rules around was it successful or not? You know, did you get both hands there? Did you click both chains? You know, there's all these rules swirling around. So it's really hard to get out of that as your definition of success. So I'm curious what other definitions you're finding and how are you holding on to those.

Josie McKee  34:13

So I think the biggest thing to focus on that I've come back to time and time again, is remembering why I rock climb. And I think it takes a lot of introspection to be able to determine that and it's different for each person. But I love the movement. I love doing something that's like, Oh, that felt improbable and like figuring out how to move my body in that way. And that space of trying hard like focusing on this hard move and whether you fall or execute it, that narrow focus of I mean, kind of getting into the flow state. And so those are success when when I know that that's the value that I hold in rock climbing, like, those are the things those are the reasons why I rock climb. Those are what I'm searching for. When I go climbing. It's not about sending, although sometimes for sure, like I want to send dogs. Yeah. But being able to find that feeling in my climbing, being able to enjoy the movement, and to get in that space of really focused try hard is like, that's if I can get that. And then if I can learn something from that, it's like, say, on a redpoint attempt, if I can get into that space, and then I can also if I fell, which would be the quote, unquote, definition of failing, if I can say, this is why I fell. What can I do next time, and then try again and be able to focus a little bit more, usually, it's the reason why I fell, wasn't focused enough. I didn't know the beta, or I was distracted by something much, so many reasons why you're not focused. But there's something there, if I can define what it is and grow from that, and apply it on the next goal. I think that's the general way of maintaining that wider definition of success.

Kris Hampton  36:21

Yeah. And I think that apply it on the next goal is a really important piece of that. One way that I've been able to stay motivated, and, frankly, happy when I fall off a rock climbs, like, I get excited when I fall in a place where it didn't expect to fall. Because I'm like, oh, there's something else to learn here that I wasn't aware of, you know, this feels like an opportunity. Now. One of the ways that I'm able to remain in that space, is by setting an intention each time I pull on, and I've improved my language, whether it's self talk, or talking out loud to my partner, around that intention, over many years, where it used to be, you know, I'm going to do it this try. Now, it's, I'm going to try harder this time, you know, or, you know, my effort is going to look like this this time. There are still times when I'm like, Oh, I'm just I'm just doing it this try. Okay, you know, but because that's not what I'm wrapped up in. If I don't actually do it. It doesn't bum me out. Yeah, it just results in the question. All right, why didn't I do what I thought I was going to do you know, what happened here? What else do I have to learn? And I, I just think it's such a valuable tool to set that intention. Ask yourself questions after and use those questions to set the intention for the next try.

Josie McKee  38:05

Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of times, because climbing is such a social sport, it's really easy to get distracted by somebody else being like, you're going to do this, this girl or just some conversation as you're tying in and getting ready to go up on the pitch. And especially when it's something that means a lot and demands a lot of focus. For me, it's pretty important for me to have a moment of sitting and just being quiet. And remembering the things that I'm going to focus on remembering my intentions for that pitch, and just getting into that space before I go. Right. I think a lot of a lot of us don't do that. But it should be like, I kind of like to say shit, I don't want to put all this on anybody else. But like, for me, it's it goes hand in hand with the like, checking my knot before I leave the ground. Check my knot and then check in on like, Am I in the right space? With my head and within my body?

Kris Hampton  39:06

Yeah, and I've talked about it on this podcast a lot of times, but for new listeners who might be here, I love the habit of talking to my partner, I do it as a way to hold myself accountable. Okay, here's, here's what this trial is going to look like for me, here's, here's my goal. Here's where I want you to hold me to, you know, I'm not going to say take it that bolt. I'm not going to grab the draw before I clip. You know, here's what I'm going to do this time. And that helps me hold myself accountable. And, and I like to do it as the belayer to if I know my partner is open to it, I'll always ask All right, what's what's the goal is time, you know, and, and depending on the partner, I will help mold their language over time as well. You know, I often say, Oh, I'm going to, you know, this is my model of success. I'm like, let's, let's back that up into something we can control. You know, how about your, your model of success for this go be, you're going to attempt to do that, you know, you're going to put this effort in where you bailed last time, something like that.

Josie McKee  40:20

And then asking it like, if your partner wants you to remind them while you're climbing totally. Like you weren't going to clip from that position you were going to do couple more moves further, like, keep going. Or remember to try hard right there. Remember to do the drop knee, whatever the thing is that they're supposed to focus on. Yeah, sometimes it's helpful to have that partner remind you, and having those conversations like, oh, my gosh, climbing so special, for that reason, that you can have that partnership that, like, not only are they tied to the rope with you, and in charge of your safety, your life is in their hands, but they can coach you through things.

Kris Hampton  41:02

Yeah, it's like this, you know, co learning. It's like, Can I help you while you're up there? You know, somehow? And what does that look like for you? For some people, it looks like just shutting the hell up, you know, and being quiet. And for some people, there needs to be little reminders, some people love encouragement, you know, whatever it is, you're right, it is really special for that reason. Are there things you do outside of climbing to cultivate this? Whether it's journaling or just reflection? Or are there some sort of tangible things you do? To make sure you're going to be in the right mindset? As you leave for you somebody?

Josie McKee  41:55

Yeah, um, visualization practice, which is, I really wish there was a better word than visualization, because it's not about the vision piece, it's about it's like, it's a multi sensory imagination experience, I think is, is how I would define it. And then it's, I usually do, like a meditation practice. And then within that, I'm envisioning what, not only what it's gonna look like to execute the beta of a certain rock Vladika, or redpoint that I'm working on, but mostly what it feels like how I want to feel in my body. And then there's the little bits of the internal dialogue to the, you know, trying to tell myself that I'm capable, little affirmation kinds of things is really useful. One of my favorites that has really helped me and I think, is the thing that bridges the gap between sport climbing and trad climbing for me is this, I trust myself Montra. And what that feels like in my body, to trust myself, to know that I know how to move on the rock, and I know how to do all the things. And when I spend time, every day, envisioning what it's like to move in a way that I trust myself, I can take that. And when I'm standing at the base of a route, remember that feeling again, or when I'm at a rest stance, before a crocs, I can remember what that feeling is again, and it's easier to focus when you trust yourself. Each leg dealt with the doubts, and you can just try hard.

Kris Hampton  43:55

Yeah, I love that. Um, I'm curious. Is that something that you were able to pull in from outside life? Or is it something that began in climbing? And if so, are you able to carry it outside of climbing to other things? You, you work on a lot of things, you're you're building a business right now. You've worked with the wild wild climbers for quite some time. You've ran the festival here. So there are lots of other things that I think require that trust in yourself and um, I'm curious, did it come from life? Or are you carrying it into life?

Josie McKee  44:37

I think it probably more came from climbing and I'm taking it into life. But then there's like, it goes back and forth. Like sure I learned how to trust myself. In life and business, the more that I can feel that sense of trust in my climbing, it just gets stronger in both ways. But yeah, I think climbing was how I learned to articulate it and to really define what that is for me. And then yeah, I think that going into work like creating this business that I'm working on. There's so many unknowns, yeah. And being able to say like, Okay, I know what the next step is. Not to get overwhelmed, and just, I trust myself to take this next step.

Josie McKee  45:27

That's the... That's how I've applied it to life. And then also, like, last night, getting up in front of a crowd and speaking, like, I love doing it. And I've done it tons of times, but it's still anxiety inducing. right before you're about to get up on stage in front of a crowd. Yeah, um, am I going to just blow this, like, forget everything that I was supposed to say? No. Like, I trust myself. And I know that feeling. And it just, it brings me back into the present moment and focusing on what I'm doing.

Kris Hampton  46:02

Yeah, very cool. I'm also curious about you, you mentioned something and we sort of glossed over it that I think is a really important thing that experienced climbers are, I won't say always good at but I see it and experienced climbers a lot, that I don't see a newer climbers as often. And that's the ability to know how you're going to feel up there. Whatever that is, whether it's you're going to feel fear, or you're going to feel doubts, or there's going to be some other anxiety, or whatever it is, when you're trying to accomplish a thing, you know, redpoint or Rockline, being able to stand on the ground and say, or to lay in bed, and you know, imagine what this scenario is going to be like, and be able to recognize, okay, at this point, I'm going to be scared. And at this point, I'm going to doubt that I can do that move. But I'm gonna do it anyway. But I'm gonna try it anyway. I'm going to recognize that fears there. And I'm going to do it anyway. It's such an important thing to be able to do. Because I hear newer climbers very often say, I don't want to be scared up there. I just have to not be scared. I think that's the wrong approach.

Josie McKee  47:31

Yeah, absolutely. Because we can't really control our emotions, we can just control our response to those emotions and let them pass. And I think that I made fear is this. It's this thing with rock climbing, right, like all of us have experienced it at some point. I think maybe there's some outliers out there, like Alex, and Alex. But be so when I first was starting to articulate this concept. It was going out in the mountains and like this, this was on a trip in Patagonia, which there's so many things to be afraid of in Patagonia, you know, it's really dangerous down there. loose rock ice that can fall on you or you can fall into a crevasse, there's really bad weather that can hit pretty quickly, all of these variables that you can't really control, and then the little amount that you can, and I started feeling this overwhelming dread every time I was going to go in the mountains. And I spent a lot of time meditating down there and visualizing down there, partially because you're hanging out in town, waiting out weather all the time. And just getting ready, like waiting, checking the weather report. So you have that time. And naming the enemy was what I started calling this concept of like, okay, what is it that I'm actually worried about? And kind of what it came down to is that there's so many things down there, that if I could compartmentalize each one of them, it was a lot less overwhelming than just this, like, oh my gosh, there's so much I'm just scared. I'm terrified of going out in the mountains. Like okay, these are the things that I'm worried about, like the weather being because I got caught in a pretty bad storm up on Fitzroy and I think that traumatized me for subsequent adventures. To recognize that, like that was the thing that I was worried about, and to control as much of that as I can and to know what I can do about it. If weather starts coming in, like this is how I'm going to make these decisions and and just knowing how to address those things when they come up means that they don't have to take hold of you, and just be like, you don't have to sit with the fear, you don't have to be in the fear. Constantly. Yeah. But if you're, if you're not accustomed to recognizing it, and being able to label what it is that you're afraid of, or worried about or distracted by, it's just gonna be a distraction that's making you feel not capable or not good, in some way, shape, or form. And you're not going to be able to perform that with that thing in the back of your mind, bring it to the forefront, or like, I'm afraid of, like, for example, this is something that I think a lot of people have been like, not as many people have been up in Patagonia climbing, like dealt with those real dangers, but I think most people probably get kind of scared when you're trying to do a hard move a little bit above your protection. Sure. And you're not willing to commit to the moves, because it's a hard move above your protection. And then you think, Okay, I'm scared, I'm scared for this reason. Cuz I might fall, because this move is hard enough that I might fall, and being able to look down and assess the actual hazard falling, like, Okay, this fall is something that I'm comfortable with, like, it's, I'm probably not going to hurt myself on this fall. Now I can execute the move. Or maybe I need to take a little bit of a smaller fall, and feel what that's like, and, and know it and understand it. But a lot of times like as you we've kind of went on a big loop around here from your question. But more experienced climbers do this more than less experienced climbers, I think, the more experience you have, the more you can just look at the hazard and assess it and say, Okay, this is something I'm willing to accept or not. Versus as you're building your experience with climbing, you haven't checked all those boxes, like you don't know what every fall is going to be like you don't know yet that your gear is gonna hold or your belayer is gonna catch you are all these things? And so it's hard to articulate yes or no, I'm willing to commit to this movement.

Kris Hampton  52:16

Yeah, you have to build a process to get through all of these things. And the more experienced climbers, and a lot of cases have honed in their process over many, many, many times doing this, you know, there are a lot of times I've heard relatively new climbers saying, Well, you know, this climber just doesn't get scared up there. And unlike that, you're full of shit. They absolutely do. You know, if I'm trying a new sport climb, I get scared above the bolt, you know, until I know what the moves are the unknown, of whether I'm going to fall or not, still scares me a little bit, you know, I still get scared on boulders that really aren't very tall. When I don't know what the move next move is going to be like, you know, yeah, I just have a process that I've built up to work through those things, whereas a new climber might not. And they get stuck at the same point over and over and over. And it takes a long time to find their way through that. Yeah. And something you just said, I think sort of highlights the beauty of using sport climbing as a way to prepare for these bigger objectives. Because on these bigger objectives, there's a lot more to be afraid of. And that fear is going to complicate your process. Nobody starts with the most complicated process, you know, we start small, and we build up into it. So if you're at this big complicated process, where there are all these variables swirling around all the time, it's really hard to recognize that there's a new problem you haven't dealt with before, and then find your way through it. So stepping back down, so to speak, into sport climbing, where it's much easier to say, Okay, there's a bolt this far away, that there's a pretty high likelihood that bolts gonna hold if I fall. I can practice this fall right here. And I can strip that fear away that way, you know, it's easier to work your way through that process. I think that's an element that's missed all the time and how sport climbing can be a great build up to harder trad climbing.

Josie McKee  54:41

Yeah, definitely. And, and then you add in the variable of if your gear is going to hold which I I don't spend a lot of time climbing on gear that I don't think is going to hold like not totally, I don't want to place gear if I'm not sure about it, or if I'm not sure about it. I'm gonna place like three pieces in a small section and make sure it's gonna hold me. Not that you can do that every time. But I like to know, I don't like to take rivers and pull gear. I've done that very few times. Don't actually, I can't think of a time that I've taken a fall and pulled a piece of gear right now off the top of my head.

Kris Hampton  55:28

I can only think of one time I've ever that's not true two times I've ever pulled gear on a fall. And one of the times it was because the rock broke the other time it was piece of gear someone else had placed and I just clipped it blindly. Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm the same way. And you can, you can become a pretty damn good trad climber without ever having to place bad gear. Yeah. There's maybe unless you live in North Carolina. Maybe then you're gonna have a hard time. Always having good gear? Yeah, no shade at North Carolina, they might just might be behind the times ethically a little bit. Do you think...  I mean, I know what the answer is here. But I'm curious to hear it. Do you think all of this preparation is going to be effective? And where do you think the holes might be that you need to shore up a little once you get there.

Josie McKee  56:39

Um, I think that getting back to the place of feeling comfortable on a big piece of rock is probably going to be the hole. Because I can't really feel that here. I mean, I can go out in the winds and do some things. But that's different. It's it's not like a wall in Yosemite. So I think just getting used to that like being up there with the exposure with the like, trying to get back to a comfortable place while at a hanging belay or I'm like, not dreading the next pitch or worrying about my performance on whatever it is that I'm doing. That kind of stuff is stuff that's harder to train for. I think it's just getting back to comfortable with that the commitment level, basically. But I think that, again, it goes back to being able to recognize what the things are that go into the process. And so commitment is one of those things that I just mentioned, I've learned to recognize where that's something that's distracting me, that's like sucking my energy that like, oh, gosh, we have to get to the top of this thing. You don't have to get to the top of it. Like, as long as you label that, that's the thing that you're concerned about. And you're like, Oh, well, we, we can always go down if we need to, or I have the skills to go up quickly aid climbing. Like, I can do that. Like I don't have to send this girl. And so being present with where I'm at in that process and that day, and again, defining what the success is like, what is it that I'm trying to get out of this attempt? And this this day, up here on a big route? It's the same as what you're trying to do on a single pitch. It's just bigger, but it's not any different.

Kris Hampton  58:49

Yeah, just multiplied over and over however many times it is. Yeah, you know. I think it's a super smart approach. I'm really curious to hear how it goes. I I love when I prepare for an objective and go to the objective. And there's something that I didn't prepare for, because I wasn't expecting that, that if I'd really thought about it, I'd have known that was there. And I just took it for granted that I'd be able to do that. You know, I sort of love those moments when I show up unprepared, having prepared for a long time. And I'm curious if any of that sort of thing pops up for you and what that might be. But before we wrap this up with the hopes of, you know, talking again after you are back from Yosemite, I want to know what of this sort of preparation that you've been doing in this mindset work that you've done, are you Seeing with other climbers, whether it's clients you're working with, or just people you've talked to, where are you seeing this, this sort of thing show up for other climbers.

Josie McKee  1:00:15

I think that so, mindset stuff, anything that is simple way to break it down as into the two categories of like performance anxiety versus the fear of falling, because you're scared of getting hurt or dying from fall. And so I see those things with people. And I think on the performance side of things, the biggest thing that I think people deal with that I've had conversations with multiple people about and then I see it out at the crag is people just getting frustrated with themselves. Like, they throw wobblers when they fall, and or they they come down and start making excuses. And it's, it's all about the ego is just getting wrapped up in did they perform on that go? And if they didn't, it's frustrating to them. And, gosh, it seems like climbing is way less fun. If you're doing that to yourself all the time. Because climbing is mostly failure. If you're if you look at it in the like, spectrum of clipping chains versus not like most of the time, you're not ascending. And if you are ascending most of the time, you're probably not trying hard enough. Totally. And so I think applying that concept, again, going back to like what success and failure are and, and being able to know what it is that you love about rock climbing and trying to find that every time you're going rock climbing is the thing that has helped me the most and the people that I've worked with the most. Like they stopped beating themselves up so much and start having fun again.

Kris Hampton  1:02:02

What if you just end up like me, and you're like, Oh, I'm gonna go back and do these trout objectives. And then you get there and you're like, Nah, I'd rather go sport climbing because it was so much more fun than and then you're like, oh, bouldering is even more fun. That's what I'm gonna do.

Josie McKee  1:02:21

Yeah, so it's fall right now, right? Like, we're just starting to get like really nice weather. And everybody's talking about this or that that they're going to do. I mean, will point sees it around here, people are talking about going into the red and falls good everywhere.

Kris Hampton  1:02:41

The Reds really fun.

Josie McKee  1:02:43

I've never been really, I can't go anywhere in the fall except for Yosemite, because I've been like, that's just what I do. And part of it is because I love going there. And fall there is beautiful. And part of it is the community. And I know that like all of these people that I know and don't get to see very often I'm going to get to see there in the fall. And so that's going to be fun. But at the same time, I'm like, I wonder if I go test what this sport climbing training has done for me for my Yosemite climbing this fall? Will I be able to take a fall off? Like can I? Can I go do what I need to do with it this year and then retire from it for a little while. I'm not necessarily like quit doing it. But can I go and see how hard of a sport climber I can be? Can I go explore these other places that I've never been? And, and really test my limits in a place? That's just more fun. And and there's not all these variables? Yeah. So I don't know, we'll see.

Kris Hampton  1:03:48

Do you think your identity is wrapped up in the bigger stuff in Yosemite?

Josie McKee  1:03:55

Um, I think it is. And I've started to care less and less about that. I don't know. I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how I feel going back there again, because it's been a while since I've performed in Yosemite, since I've like really tried to do anything with myself there. And so I wonder, like, do I care less about it? Because I haven't been doing it? Or do I care less about it, because it just care less about it now. So we'll see.

Kris Hampton  1:04:31

I love it. I love these kinds of questions. You know, and just like the stories last night, we you know, we all have a bunch of different origin points. And our identities can can and should shift. So, you know, I know that sounds like a tough question when it comes out of my mouth and it sounds like a tough answer for you in You're saying it. But I think it's a thing we are grappling with every single day. Like, how is my identity shifting? Where where is it going? Am I okay with it going there? You know, it's it's such an interesting question. And I'm excited to see what the answer is when you get back. And if it shifted more if you're like, Nope, I'm a Yosemite climber, that's what I do.

Josie McKee  1:05:28

Maybe I won't come back. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:30

Maybe you won't come back. Maybe you'll just live on the granite forever.

Josie McKee  1:05:35

No, I think I doubt that. That will be the case because I do really love sport climbing. Like it is just so much fun. And it feels way more sustainable. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:05:48

Cool. Well, let's talk again. 

Josie McKee  1:05:52

Sounds good. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:53

whenever you're back, and I hope the trip goes well. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:59

Oh, man, I can hardly wait for you all to hear part two of this because we uncover some things that are absolutely fundamental to having a long and fulfilling career as a climber. That'll drop a week from today. And I'm going to save my thoughts for the end of that episode. In the meantime, at the blog post for this episode, you'll find links to work with Josie at Mind Athlete and more ways to get in touch with or follow what she's doing. The Power Company Podcast is brought to you by Power Company Climbing., You can learn, grow, and excel with us at powercompanyclimbing.com, where we have recently completely overhauled our website making it easier than ever to search topically through our decade plus of articles and episodes. Check it out. We're on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube, @powercompanyclimbing but never the Twitter's because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.