Episode 54: Feminism in Climbing with Shelma Jun

"Flash Foxy" founder Shelma Jun is an unapologetic force to be reckoned with, and she's put more thought than most of us into this feminist movement that is rocking the climbing world.  To be honest, while I've put a ton of thought into it myself, much of it was in the form of denial.  When that began to change, and I opened my eyes a little, I knew I had to have a conversation with Shelma.  I'm extremely happy that she was willing to sit down with me and struggle through a tough, but important conversation.  

Some of you will agree.  Some of you won't.  That's ok.  What's important is that we start the conversation, on many levels, and keep it going.  

I've fucked up many times.  I'll fuck up more.  That's about all that I'm sure of.  

That, and that I'll always make an effort to realize that I don't need to have all the answers.  

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:33

What's up everybody? I am your host Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 54 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by PowerCompanyClimbing.com. Things have been crazy over here. The Process Journals are out there live there in the world. And the response has been overwhelming and I'm pretty stoked about that. Nate's actually in the kitchen right now addressing envelopes and he's got a stack of journals in front of him getting ready to be sent out to people. So if you haven't ordered one, check out the website. You can see what they're all about and and get your taste of them. I actually handed one to Alex Honnold yesterday. He was over here talking about what his training could look like, post Free Rider, and he was stoked on it. So there's that. I got back from OR this week and I recorded a ton of conversations while at OR. So just so you guys know, today's conversation is pretty um.... it was a tough one. I'm definitely struggling through it. Struggling to understand some things and and maybe I'm out of my lane. I don't know, I feel like I've got a voice here in this community now and I think it's important to talk about things that that are bigger than just training for climbing. And frankly, it's important to me because I'm a coach, and I work with women and I want to understand how to do that better. And I want to understand how to be a better partner and a better friend. So. So I think this conversation today is important. But that doesn't mean we're going away from all the nerdy training talk that you guys love, because there's still a ton of that. While in Salt Lake for OR,  I talked to Steve Maisch, a couple of conversations with him. I talked to Dan John and actually got a chance to work out with Dan which was amazing. Acacia Young, Carrie Cooper, a great series coming up with Gnarly Nutrition. And I also recorded a cool conversation between Alex Honnold and Arno Ilgner about the mental side of training. So that and tons of other stuff is coming. So if this is not your, your type of conversation, if this is too deep for you to do, too much thought into it, that you just want to talk about training, those are coming up too, so don't worry, and I totally get it. I totally understand it. About today's conversation, it's with a good friend of mine Shelma Jun, who runs Hey, Flash Foxy. She also started and runs the the Women's Climbing Festival, which has happened in Bishop and will be happening in Chattanooga. And, and she also was part of the Never Not Collective, which, which you'll have links to in your show notes. And, and I expect to see big things from this group of girls. They're all powerhouses. But Shelma is a, she's a dynamic woman, and she's, she's at the forefront, you know, whether she chose to be there or not, she's at the forefront of this feminism movement in climbing, and she's put a lot of thought into it. You know, it's not just a thing she's fallen into, for her. She puts a lot of thought into her moves, what she says, what she's doing and how she inspires people. And I really needed to have this conversation. Like I said, as a coach, as a friend, as a partner, I needed to do it. So let's jump into this thing, and you guys can struggle with me. 

Shelma Jun  04:27

There's gonna be an uncomfortable conversation we're gonna have. I'm not going to feel really good. I'm going to feel weird because I realize I've been doing something unintentionally that really affects somebody else and then hopefully using that to move forward productively or positively.

Shelma Jun  04:41

I'm wearing my America shirt today. 

Kris Hampton  04:55

Oh, you are. With the kitten and the puppy.

Shelma Jun  04:58

 And they're wrapped in an American flag.

Kris Hampton  05:00

 Doesn't get more American than that really.

Shelma Jun  05:01

 It also says God Bless America at the bottom and there's fireworks all over. And I got it at a gas station in Texas 

Kris Hampton  05:09

Those look less like fireworks and more like Koosh balls.

Shelma Jun  05:14

And I got it at the gas station in Texas. It can't really get more American basically than this shirt.

Kris Hampton  05:19

Hahaha. All right, we're gonna have to get serious eventually. 

Shelma Jun  05:23

All right, all right. 

Kris Hampton  05:25

It's been a long, long weekend of laughing, so I don't know how serious we can be, but

Shelma Jun  05:31

 I think we're a little delirious.

Kris Hampton  05:33

 It's, it's absolutely true. But the reason I wanted to talk to you in particular, is because you're one of the first people I talked to and when we first talked about collaborating, that was involved in this feminism, sexism, equality, whatever you want to call the movement. You are one of the first people I talked to who was involved in that and at the time, I was really excited about it. Partially for selfish reasons, because I was at work one day, Facebook told me it was International Women's Day, which, by the way, seems kind of ridiculous, and and I decided, why don't I just spend the whole day posting about these women that I work with, because they're bad asses. And I did. And the response was really great. But more importantly, the women were really appreciative. They're like, this was really cool, you know. So I thought, I want to do something like this on a bigger scale sometime. And just recently, I've been thinking about this for a while and just recently, the conversation around all of this on Facebook and Instagram, and everywhere, there's the conversation is happening, except for face to face. It gets so nutty. Like, it's so hard to feel like, as a white male, I'm allowed to even be involved in the conversation. And maybe I'm not, I don't really know, that's, that's what I want to talk to you about. I'm very, very confused and conflicted. And don't know what the hell's going on. So I want the, you know, I want you to basically tell me how it is. That's what I want here.

Shelma Jun  07:32

Well, I can't tell you how it is. Strangely enough, I can't represent all women, bizarrely. Um, but um, yeah, I think that it is a really important topic and I think it is something I've been thinking about a lot. As Flash Foxy, and the Women's Climbing Festival has been growing, I have had a lot of men, either friends or acquaintances, or just people shoot me emails, just asking, like, how can I support women, as like a male or a white male? What is the best way that I can support this movement? So I think that this is a really apt topic to be discussing.

Kris Hampton  08:15

Yeah, I just feel like it's hard to know where we fit in, if we do fit in, you know, because these conversations that happen on the social medias just seem to be... I don't even know what the word is.... caustic. Like they they just get to be the shouting matches and blaming people for being who they are, you know, like, we aren't allowed opinions because we're not a woman of color in a climbing gym.

Shelma Jun  08:51

I think that that is not true. I think people are definitely... I think everybody's entitled to an opinion. I think what I would ask is that maybe you have an opinion, while acknowledging that your opinion is not necessarily from direct experience, and being open to, to listening and thinking about these experiences that other women are saying that they are experiencing.

Kris Hampton  09:25

Right.

Shelma Jun  09:26

 And not trying to guess like, not trying to say, hey, I've never seen that happen. I don't think that happens because no one I know has seen that happen.

Kris Hampton  09:37

 Right.

Shelma Jun  09:39

 So your experience is invalid. I think women are being... our experiences and our feelings and our emotions are being invalidated all the time. "You're overreacting." "You're being too sensitive." "He was probably just joking." "He was probably just trying to be nice." "You're making a big deal out of nothing.". I think these are things that women hear all the time throughout our entire lives.

Kris Hampton  10:03

Right. And even if that person was just joking, or wasn't being serious, or whatever, even if that actually is the case, it's still belittling, or

Shelma Jun  10:16

Yeah, it's still, those are the emotions that you felt right?

Kris Hampton  10:19

Right. Exactly.

Shelma Jun  10:20

 Those emotions happened and still existed. And I'm saying something hurtful or negative or destructive or unpleasant, is does not have to be intentional. You know, I accidentally hurt people's feelings all the time, because we're all still growing. And, and, you know, I'm trying to understand these dynamics between people in society. And it's definitely really tough. And I think it's also kind of maybe just understanding and that maybe your voice doesn't have to be the loudest, as the person who's not directly affected. Maybe your voice doesn't have to be the loudest and maybe what you're doing is lending your voice that might be powerful, because you're a white man, or because you're somebody who's well known in the community, to uplift the voices of people who may not be have the same opportunities to be heard. So instead of tooting your opinion really loudly, maybe you're using your voice to share the opinions of these other people whose opinions are really important. 

Kris Hampton  11:25

Right, right. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's all really good points, because when I first came into this, I definitely had the gut reaction to say, I don't see that happening. Like, that's not true. And I'm sort of, I sort of went to this place, almost immediately of climbing is this great thing, I want to protect it, you know, and saying, we're not sexist. You know, and it's still part of me believes that, that we're not innately sexist. It's not like we're trying to be, but like, you say, a lot of what happens out there, in, especially in the climbing world is very white male dominated and I think that just creates a bias that we may not even see. And I definitely was in that boat, you know, not initially, like I said, thinking, I don't see that happening. I don't see women getting objectified that often, you know, no more than the rest of the world. But that's making it sound like it's okay in the rest of the world, so we're fine, too.

Shelma Jun  12:33

Yeah, um, I think this is something I was talking about with somebody yesterday, but like, climbing is awesome. And we all love it. And this is our community, and the people are good and this is a great community of, of, of wonderful people and we all love it, or we wouldn't be here.

Kris Hampton  12:54

Right.

Shelma Jun  12:55

 And for a lot of people, for a lot of folks, they've defined or molded their lives around climbing. It's informed where we live, how we live, what we do to make money, what we do, get out, who we end up being with, who our friends are. It's informed, like, you know it, it infiltrates every almost every part of our being. And it's so special to us because of that, and I completely understand having a gut reaction have something that's so precious to you. For flaws in it potentially being pointed out, it can feel like a personal attack. And so I understand that, but I also love the climbing community and I think it is really special. And I think we are a better group than, like a better bunch than a lot of other groups. 

Kris Hampton  13:52

Sure.

Shelma Jun  13:52

 And I want to, I think we can do better. I want to hold us to a higher standard. A lot of sometimes people will say to me, oh, well, climbing is way less sexist than a lot of other things that I've done before. You know, it's way less sexist than other sports that I've done or other places that I've been, whether it be the office or a bar or any other sort of, you know, setting. And I agree, but I think we can set our bar higher than that. 

Kris Hampton  14:22

Yeah

Shelma Jun  14:22

 I think our bar should not be well, we're better than at least we're a little bit better than those other places. I think as climbers, we can do better. LIke we should have set a higher bar. And, and, you know, we've been people who push boundaries for a long time, and question authority and question a traditional way of thinking and living. So I think that what we're trying to do here is just an extension of that, to push the boundaries about how women can be treated, how people of color can be treated, how they can be included, how inclusive If we can be, how open we can be in. I mean, how amazing would it be if we start something in the climbing community that then reverberates into the society that makes it more welcoming, inclusive, diverse, like, you know, diverse, all of those things? Like that would be amazing.

Kris Hampton  15:18

Yeah, for sure. And I think we do have that power and that power is getting more and more obvious, you know. When I was doing some, you know, "research" and I use air quotes around research, because, you know, it's so hard to find anything that's, that's not become an echo chamber on Facebook, or, you know, any of the social media. So I looked for articles that seem to be well thought out, by some of the key the people I see as key figures in this in this movement/argument, whatever it is, that's happening and whatever part they take in it. And something that you just said that we can set the bar higher, reminded me of something I read that really kind of surprised me when I read it. Because the one of the articles talked about, you know, it was a woman defending climbing, saying, it's not as sexist...that it's, you know, that we don't have to be constantly complaining about the inequality. And she mentioned that 99% of the time, she when she's spotted by a man, he doesn't touch her inappropriately. And I thought, yeah, that's I think that's probably true. You know, and I and I left it at that as that's why the argument's invalid. But then I read an article in response to that saying, if you go out bouldering, and you are spotted by a man 500 times over a season, and five of those times you're touched inappropriately, that's being sexually harassed five times in a climbing season. That's insane. I hadn't thought of it that way. But that tiny percentage that we say, "Well, that's okay. That's normal. We're okay." isn't really okay.

Shelma Jun  17:38

Yeah, sexual assault is sexual assault, and harassment and...no, I agree. And I think it's, it can be tough for some people to understand, because I think obviously, not all women's experiences are the same. 

Kris Hampton  17:55

Sure. 

Shelma Jun  17:55

And and so you know, there can be arguments that a woman has felt like she hasn't been treated unequally or treated poorly or differently snd that can be the case. And that can definitely be the case. I just, I would hope that these folks could take a moment to understand that their experience is not the experience of everybody. And there's certainly enough women talking about it that it isn't a one off random occurrence. 

Kris Hampton  18:31

Yeah.

Shelma Jun  18:32

And I think like when it comes to like, I've definitely heard the argument of like, keep politics out of climbing. Why are you making climbing political? Like, why don't you just go out and climb and enjoy, enjoy it and stop wasting your time writing this stuff, just go out and climb. 

Kris Hampton  18:53

Right, right.

Shelma Jun  18:53

So I think what it can, what can be hard to understand is that I didn't make climbing political. Climbing is political to me always because these are things that are part of my climbing experience. 

Kris Hampton  19:07

Sure.

Shelma Jun  19:07

 You know, maybe it feels like I'm making it political to you, not you directly, but whoever is saying these things, because you don't experience these things on a regular basis. But I'm not making it political. Like the things that I'm talking about are part of my climbing experience.

Kris Hampton  19:24

 Right right. They are a reality.

Shelma Jun  19:25

 I don't want them to be but they're part of my reality of going out to the gym or to the crag and having these interactions.

Kris Hampton  19:33

Yeah, I think that's that's a really good point. But and you know, I'm sure I've been in that same boat saying, why are we even bringing all this up, you know, everything was running along smoothly. But again, that's my, my experience. And I think something else that's important to note is that just because someone else had....and this something I've learned from this movement, this is one of the good takeaways from these you know, insane Facebook arguments that happen. is that just because someone else has an experience that's different than yours, it doesn't invalidate your own.

Shelma Jun  20:10

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  20:11

You know, there, it doesn't have to be binary. You know, we all have a lot of different experiences and I think that's really important to keep in mind. And I think a lot of people forget that, based on what I see on these Facebook posts. A lot of people forget that.

Shelma Jun  20:25

I mean, and the Facebook posts are tricky. It's a really tricky and difficult medium to be having these kinds of really complex conversation,

Kris Hampton  20:38

It gives me a headache when I try and read it.

Shelma Jun  20:40

Because it feels like you can't take things back, right? 

Kris Hampton  20:43

Sure.

Shelma Jun  20:44

Like, once you write something, even if you edit it, 

Kris Hampton  20:46

Like that's your truth. 

Shelma Jun  20:46

Even if you're trying to try to say something else, people 

Kris Hampton  20:50

You can't delete it. There's already been screenshots. 

Shelma Jun  20:52

Yeah, like you can't take it back. And I just don't think that's a healthy way to have a conversation. Like we're all trying to figure this out together. Oftentimes, people will be like, Okay, well, what's, what are the answers? What are those solutions? I don't know, dude, like, I don't, I didn't come here with this...(cough)...excuse me...I didn't come here with a stack of solutions and I shouldn't have all the answers by myself. That wouldn't really be productive. It's about coming together and having this these discussions and like, piecing it out together to come come up with a solution together, right?

Kris Hampton  21:28

 Right.

Shelma Jun  21:29

That makes sense for us as a community, and the Women's Climbing Festival and some of these other things that I do are really about creating spaces to have these conversations. And on Facebook, like think about if you and I were having a conversation, and it wasn't being recorded, and we were having a heated discussion. And I might say something, and you might refute it, and give me a really good logical explanation of why what I said is actually not true. And then I might sit here and be like, you're right. That's true. I take it back. Like that wasn't really, you know, I agree that your argument is better than mine. We go along our ways. 

Kris Hampton  22:11

Right.

Shelma Jun  22:11

You can't do that on Facebook. 

Kris Hampton  22:13

Right.

Shelma Jun  22:13

Once it's up there, people are like, "Well, this is what you said. I screenshotted it. It's here."

Kris Hampton  22:19

 Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  22:20

Which is not the way discussions should go. We should be able to change our minds, and have our minds changed, and evolve and adapt. Like that would be the healthy way to have a conversation about this. And so I hope that people can have a little bit more perspective and, and be a little bit more generous when these conversations are, are happening online. Um, I think that sometimes it can be frustrating for some women or some allies, when somebody asks a question that seems seemingly really obvious to somebody who's really well versed, and has been thinking about it for a long time. If someone's like, "Well, is there really sexism?", like the immediate gut reaction can be to be like, really frustrated.

Kris Hampton  23:06

Yeah, yeah.

Shelma Jun  23:07

Because this is happening to you and it's frustrating that there's still people who don't understand that it's happening and you feel like it's been something you talk about all the time. But I think if somebody is coming, genuinely trying to understand, like, we need to be a little bit more patient and a little bit more generous with explaining, even if, and I get it, like, we shouldn't have to explain. Like, that isn't our job like, as women who are trying to create, I'm really hesitant to use the word equality, but create better...um...

Kris Hampton  23:46

Why are you hesitant to use the word equality?

Shelma Jun  23:48

Because I think there are a lot of different definitions of what equality means.

Kris Hampton  23:53

 Okay 

Shelma Jun  23:53

And I don't neccessarily

Kris Hampton  23:54

That's why I'm hesitant to use the words feminism or sexism and why I switched to equality. So I'm really interested in hearing.

Shelma Jun  24:00

Well, so for example, okay, this is us moving to totally another topic. Just so you are ready.

Kris Hampton  24:02

We can come back. 

Shelma Jun  24:08

I think certain people feel like equality means getting the exact same thing that men have right now, for example, equal pay, or the same management positions or whatever. 

Kris Hampton  24:20

Right. 

Shelma Jun  24:21

And I think that equality moves beyond that. I think the systems that are in place right now that define leadership, that define success, that define management skills, that define drive, are defined, were defined by men. 

Kris Hampton  24:42

Sure.

Shelma Jun  24:42

The benchmarks were created by men. And now we're saying for women, some, some people say, oh, if we have enough women at that same benchmark, that means things are equal.

Kris Hampton  24:53

Right. 

Shelma Jun  24:54

And I think that we need to break everything down and redefine what those benchmarks are based on what everybody thinks, men, women, gender neutral folks, you know, so that the benchmark is a better accurate reflection of like the entire population or community.

Kris Hampton  25:13

 Sure. 

Shelma Jun  25:14

So for me, it's not that we should have the same thing that you have on this system that was created predominantly by men, but that maybe we have to create a whole new system. Right? That's why I'm reluctant to use the word equality.

Kris Hampton  25:28

Yeah, I'm glad we went on that tangent. Because, for me, the, the language is really important. And I want to be able to say it correctly. I mean, that's how I communicate with my audiences through words. And, and sexism. And feminism felt very one sided, and I wanted the conversation to be more equal. So that's why I went to equality. But it's interesting that you, you see it that way. Because as soon as you were talking about it, I went to the language behind the entire system that you and I have talked about before the man up Be a man. Things like that, that define being successful or standing up for yourself or whatever. are associated male.

Shelma Jun  26:19

Yeah. You know, so and being weak is associated with a lot of females for sure. Yep. You know, don't be Don't cry like a girl. Don't be a pussy. Don't you know, there's always there's all this language associated with being weak with women.

Kris Hampton  26:37

Yeah, language is really powerful.

Shelma Jun  26:39

Yeah. And it's very important. So I think it is, it is something we should be thoughtful about. 

Shelma Jun  26:48

I mean, I just, I just, you know, I think it's, I don't know, if you can not use a quality, I'm just reluctant to use it. Because I feel like the way I define it is not necessarily the way that a lot of pure find it.

Kris Hampton  27:01

Sure. Okay. So let's get back to the original topic here. You know, these Facebook, arguments, these, the whole conversation surrounding it. One of the reasons I got really nervous with this campaign of sorts that I had been planning to celebrate all these women I work with, was because Outdoor Research and Rei and these other companies had started to come out with videos and blog posts and podcasts and things that are celebrating women. And there was this sort of backlash on it. You know, I read several articles saying that they were co opting feminism and profiting off of feminism and and that made me really nervous, because that was not my intention. But I knew that, like we said, rather, whether it's my intention or not, it could still be hurtful. And a, I didn't want to have to be involved in those conversations on social media. Be I didn't want to unintentionally hurt people or offend people. So where can we fit in as, as white males or or anyone else for that matter? I feel like we're the we're the polar opposite of what you're trying to accomplish. And I know that's not true. But that's how it seems. So that's why I'm saying white male.

Shelma Jun  28:55

Yeah, I think I think this is like a two part question. I think the one part is how do you support as a business? And the other part is, how do you support individually, right, as a male or white male, or, you know, somebody who's not necessarily like, the demographic that's being discussed, right? Yep. Um, and so I think those are two separate things. I'm gonna go with the individual first. I think actually, when you look on those Facebook posts, what can be interesting is that when you see that when women agree with the men who are kind of denying that problems exist, you'll see them kind of gain privilege and be accepted. Yeah, as cool enough, laid back enough, not overreacting, not too sensitive. And you'll see that when men defend the women, they'll lose that privilege and then you'll start getting the same kind of snarky comments that the men Oh, you're not going to get very many dates doing that, bro. Or like, oh, like, you just, you know, oh, like, do you think this is impressive to women? Like, the only reason you'd be doing it is to try to, like, get women to date you or some sort of like, you know, really image service.

Kris Hampton  30:17

I've totally seen this. And I didn't even recognize it as such,

Shelma Jun  30:21

right. So it's, it's an interesting phenomenon, right. And so I think that there's a lot of ways that you can be an ally, I think one really obvious way is standing up for women and acknowledging that they're not like to validate their experiences, to acknowledge, it would be incredibly powerful for someone to say, I've never experienced it. I've never seen it. But I think these, you know, I'm not going to invalidate these women's feelings, if this is what they experienced, this is what they experienced. And I believe it. And I think that it's a problem, and we should figure out, and we're, if we want to be the kind of community that we keep saying that we are, we should try to acknowledge that and or we should acknowledge that and try to fix the problem. Yeah, um, people were saying there was no problem. And there was a problem, just not for you, right? We're not making a problem, this has always been a problem for us, you know. And so I think that that's one really powerful way is to stand up for women who are being attacked, and then maybe take that, like loss of privilege from some some of those other men or folks. And, and use your power a little bit, right. I think it's also being a supporter, and kind of recognizing You don't have to be the leader of the movement. You don't have to be the biggest voice. You don't have to be the one planning everything. You don't have to be at the forefront. But to be a supporter and asking women who are leaders in that movement, how can I support you? What are ways that I can support what you're doing? What are the resources that I have, that maybe you don't have access to? That would be helpful to you? Right, right. And then finally, I think one last concrete point could be to like, recognize, it's not always about you. And that's okay. Yep. Yep. You know, sometimes people will read articles be like, this was not relevant to me at all, I felt no connection to it. And to recognize and be okay. That not everything's about you, and not every conversation should be relevant to you, or should directly talk to you. And maybe it's talking to somebody else who needs to hear that or wants to hear that, or it feels validated in their emotions, because they hear that or read that or see that, and that you don't always have to be in the room, or that maybe you shouldn't be in the room. Right? And that there is a power, especially in marginalized communities to having a space unfettered by social norms and pressures, to have honest conversations that you don't maybe that aren't maybe possible in the current social dynamic that exists in the in regular spaces.

Kris Hampton  33:22

Is that how you see your festival?

Shelma Jun  33:24

Yeah, I that's definitely how I see my festival. I think it's been interesting. There's this. There's always these things going around about the festival, about every occasionally I'll get like these comments that say something to the sort of, well, my female climbing partner is the most awesome partner that I've ever had. She's amazing. And I trust her and we go on all these adventures. If she went to your festival, I wouldn't have this amazing partner for myself.

Kris Hampton  33:58

That's really funny. 

Shelma Jun  33:59

And it's really interesting to me, because it's kind of like things that happen when women come to the Women's Climbing Festival. Women climb with women, women meet other women, they have a space to have discussions and be able to talk about things. They learn from each other, they gain experience, they get to teach each other. Things that don't happen when women come into the Women's Climbing Festival- women stop climbing with men forever.

Shelma Jun  34:00

 But actually, what happens? I wrote an article maybe about a year ago for Climbing Magazine for a women's issue. And it kind of talked about why, it was it was making the case for the importance of women only spaces. And the case that I was making was that we're all complicit in the gender dynamics that exist in our society. And it's not just men, it's women too. Women, we make assumptions about men, we make assumptions about other women. We have these stereotypes instilled into us, I think, you know, for example, slut shaming. That does not just come from men, That definitely is something that was instilled into all of us, you know, men and women, that like, "Oh, she's wearing that she's asking for it", instead of thinking, "Why is she asking for it? Why can't she just wear whatever the fuck she wants and not be harassed?" Like, that's kind of ridiculous. 

Kris Hampton  34:00

Totally.

Shelma Jun  34:00

 Um, and I remember having to, like, make that transition. And, you know, and know, and thinking those things when I was younger, because that's what I had been taught.

Kris Hampton  34:27

Right.

Shelma Jun  34:32

Oh, yeah, I definitely was, like I said yesterday to you, I grew up in 1990s, gangsta rap. So yeah, yeah, gender dynamics were totally fucked up when I was a kid.

Shelma Jun  35:48

So I think it's, it's not that we're pointing the finger. We're saying like, we live in the society that is like, instilled in all of us this kind of these negative, that gender dynamics, and let's all like, unpack them together, and kind of think about how we can change that, right. And for women, I think there are these dynamics where we feel certain social pressures, when we're around men, to not appear weak, to prove ourselves to show that we're not overreacting or being too sensitive, or making something out of nothing, these kinds of stereotypes about women that I've talked about.

Kris Hampton  36:26

Right. 

Shelma Jun  36:27

And so I think when you take when you create a space of only women, some of those social pressures on ourselves, like on women, like kind of disappear, kind of are not as present. And it allows us to have certain conversations that might not happen, it makes company and I don't think that this is, there's no but by no means is this the end goal, like we should just have women only spaces. I think the end goal is like we use these spaces where we can have honest conversations as an experimental space, to have conversations that might not exist anywhere else, to kind of see what what we come up with. Maybe what we come up with is something that would be really cool for the entire climbing community. And women are going to come to the Women's Climbing Festival, we're going to talk about these ideas and they're going to take it back to wherever they came from and they're going to talk with all their climbing friends, which are men and women. And maybe we'll see a shift in the entire climbing community to make it a better reflection of the changing demographic of climbing.

Kris Hampton  37:28

Yeah, I'm glad you said that was I was gonna ask, you know, if you want to have this conversation that's going to eventually at some point be a productive conversation should men not be involved? And, and I think that's what you're saying is right now, men don't need to be involved and and we need to be okay with that. But by being able to have these more open, honest conversations with women without these constraints that are put upon them, or that they put upon themselves, in mixed company, that that will lead to being able to have better conversations. 

Shelma Jun  38:06

Yeah

Kris Hampton  38:07

. And that may be men need to be doing the same thing to some degree, you know, or to all the degrees? Because we're not necessarily, not that I see. not that I see out there in public, you know, we we end up just getting involved in the conversation with other women and and it's always where I see it is always on Facebook, where it's very, very little productive, anything happens on there.

Shelma Jun  38:39

I think they're, I don't know if it's one and then the other. I think they can be complimentary. They just don't have to be mutually exclusive. Sure. I think those conversations that include men and women can be happening at the same time, but it's not one or the other. And that's something that I have been thinking about a lot is how do we take this to the next? How do we expand what's happening in these discussions that are happening and facilitate and create a way for our male allies or people who genuinely want to be male allies to? To be involved in the conversation to move forward? I've got something that was really interesting that we were talking about yesterday is that when we talk about these gender dynamics, it's not exclusive to women. You know, men have similar social pressures put upon them especially when they're young. Which then like also obviously affects them as they get older and become adults. To be tough. 

Kris Hampton  39:50

Yep. 

Shelma Jun  39:50

To not show emotion, to man up, right? And to not be able to be more sensitive about things

Kris Hampton  40:05

Right.

Shelma Jun  40:06

 And to provide, and all these, all these pressures that probably have, not probably, definitely have negative effects on men, especially ones who maybe tend to be less inclined to be in that kind of to have that kind of personality. And while women have been able to foster a little bit more of that the counterpart to women stereotypes through kind of this idea of a tomboy, which I don't really love the word, because it actually has the word boy in it, which is kind of ridiculous. 

Kris Hampton  40:40

Right. Sure. And "Tom", which is a male name. I don't understand where the word comes from actually.

Shelma Jun  40:46

I don't either, um, something I should probably look into. But men don't have that kind of same counterpart on the male side. So if you are more sensitive, or you don't want to be kind of what this archetype of what a male should be, you're ridiculed. You're, you're seen as a sissy or whatever, right? And so I guess I'm just bringing this up to say that, like, these are conversations men could and should probably be having in in tandem with these other conversations, because it's all connected. It's all connected, that like, these kinds of problems all stem from the same place. 

Kris Hampton  41:27

Yeah.

Shelma Jun  41:27

 And that's kind of where intersectional feminism comes in, right? That, you know, when you talk about women's rights, and you talk about feminism, it's all connected to racism, and homophobia, and xenophobia, and all these different discriminatory practices and systems.

Kris Hampton  41:47

Right.

Shelma Jun  41:47

 Because they all kind of stem from the same place.

Kris Hampton  41:49

 Yep. 

Shelma Jun  41:50

And my hope is, is that like, the women's issues, they tend to be a little bit more palatable for a lot of people than talking about race or talking about the queer community.

Kris Hampton  42:03

 For sure. It's an easier conversation.

Shelma Jun  42:04

It's an easier conversation for folks. And what I'm hoping is, by being able to shift how people maybe think about sexism and women and and these dynamics, that that'll create a way to think that will make it more open to see that those same kinds of ideas and analysis and dynamics are what cause racism, homophobia, xenophobia, and all those things. So it's all connected, right? They all are a very connected movement, even though some people seemingly think like, these are totally different things. And that's kind of what's also really exciting about this, like burgeoning women's movement. In terms of being a company, 

Kris Hampton  42:55

Yeah.

Shelma Jun  42:57

Um, I think it's really tricky. But I will say this, is that I guess my expectations of companies, especially really big ones, is not as lofty as some folks. I'm like, to me, capitalism and corporations, their basis is to make money.

Kris Hampton  43:20

Right. 

Shelma Jun  43:22

That's why they were created and they define success by making profits and increasing share value for their shareholders and that's like the capitalist dynamic that exists. So when you point a finger at a company and say you're doing this to make money, it seems...I don't know....to me, I'm like, yeah, of course, they're doing this to make money. 

Kris Hampton  43:49

Right. 

Shelma Jun  43:49

That's what they want to do. Like, that's their basis. 

Kris Hampton  43:51

Yep. 

Shelma Jun  43:52

And whether they do it in a more sustainable way, in a more ethical way, that is important. But they're not going to do a more sustainable or ethical thing that doesn't still make money. 

Kris Hampton  44:08

Sure. 

Shelma Jun  44:08

Right? 

Kris Hampton  44:09

Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  44:09

And so and I don't think and I don't, I don't believe they should be leading the movement around women. Anyways, I think that that should stay grassroots. That should stay with women, That should stay on the ground. And as somebody who's worked in organizing for, you know, eight plus years, I would say that this work has been happening before it was trendy. And before....on the ground, it's been happening before it was trendy, before it was cool, before it was marketable. And should it become untrendy or non marketable, like that work, it's still gonna happen on the ground, and that's why it's important for that to stay there. 

Kris Hampton  44:51

Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  44:52

And I think, of course, we should criticize and we should critique and we should point out flaws in these campaigns, so that we can say if you really want to be a part of this, like put your money where your mouth is. Like show us the true way that you're doing it, that it's intentional, that you can do it in a, in a way that's actually helpful and not hurtful. And I think it's a lot about the process. Are you including women in the discussion of how these campaigns work? Or the all the decisions being made by men at the top who are like, "We're going to create this woman's campaign and this is what we're going to do and we're going to hire some women to be in it."? Are women actually included in the conversation, where women are saying, I think this is the kind of campaign that would be most relevant to me. And is it just white women or is it women of color? I mean, I think it's easy to throw women or women of color, people of color into an ad or some sort of media, but who are the decision makers? Like, that's what I want to know. I want to know, like, are the decisions are they being involved in the creative part of it, and the decision making part of it and the marketing campaign part of it, because that's where it's really important. Like, that's where it's intentional. If you're creating something, and then deciding, like, this is what's gonna be marketable to women and you're not a woman, like it's a very superficial way to empower women. You're not really empowering women in the best way that you can.

Kris Hampton  46:19

Yep. No, I think that's important. I really do. And, you know, it leads me to this, recently, I believe it was Outdoor Research, put out a video and I think the title was "Where The Wild Things Play" or "Where The Wild Things Live", or 

Shelma Jun  46:37

Something like that, yeah.

Kris Hampton  46:38

Something along those lines. And when I first saw the video, it was Annalisa showed it to me, and she really liked it. You know, she really enjoyed it. And then the next day again, on the Facebooks, I see these conversations going on about how horrible the video is, because there are men involved, because there are men in the beginning of the video. We are still being defined by men. Why do those men need to be there? Why are there no women of color? Why is it all white women? You know, and, and part of me is like, I didn't even notice those things as a problem and then part of me is like, are they a problem? I don't really know. And then, you know, when I first saw the video, I recognized that it was made by a woman, you know. I looked to see who made it snd it was made by a woman. And a lot of these arguments, they're like, the guy who made this has no idea what's going on, you know, and I'm like, these people making these arguments in these incredibly loud voices are the ones who have no idea what's going on. And that's one of the things that scared me off a little bit from from doing this campaign. How often, I guess is what I'm asking or, or, or does it happen, that it goes too far, like people are looking for something to complain about? And I'm not saying by any means that this is happening all the time.

Shelma Jun  48:13

Well, first of all, I think that, um, in terms of the the, the criticism that men were involved, I don't think that it was men were involved. It was that like, women were being............. I guess like you were saying, like women are being defined by men. I think maybe more than that, it was like the women were being put, let's see, what's the best word for this? .................Women's empowerment. The empowerment of women through the outdoors, was shown as a reflection of how they appear to men.

Kris Hampton  48:57

Gotcha.

Shelma Jun  48:57

Do you see like, it wasn't that men were just involved, but it was like, oh, men are looking on Tinder for dates and they can't find these dates because women are outside doing things.

Kris Hampton  49:07

 Right. 

Shelma Jun  49:08

Um, which is a very different story, right? It's women still being shown through the lens of how men are looking at women. Like we are looking for women. Oh, you're like all these badass women now that are outside? Now we're gonna play, we're gonna show these amazing clips of badass women doing stuff with a song about a guy looking for a badass girl.

Kris Hampton  49:31

 Right. Right. 

Shelma Jun  49:32

So like, it's still like, women through the lens of men, right? And I think that's what was seen as problematic, which I think it's valid. And I think again, women, the woman film... the woman filmmaker, like we're not all immune to these gender dynamics and it's not only men who are complicit in these gender dynamics, right?

Kris Hampton  49:59

Right. 

Shelma Jun  49:59

We all grew up in the same society that privileges men, privileges men's viewpoints, privileges men's opinions, privileges men's opinions about women and so we are making mistakes as we try to figure it out. The same thing with women of color, I think. Um, I don't know this filmmaker, but I imagine she probably called a bunch of her friends. 

Kris Hampton  50:29

Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  50:30

Or some folks that she knew or friends of friends and said, hey, let's make this film. I want to inspire women. And when she's thinking about women, she's thinking about her community of women. And she's, and maybe all the women of her community happen to be white. 

Kris Hampton  50:45

Right.

Shelma Jun  50:46

And she hasn't thought, Oh, I'm making something to celebrate women, and it's only white women, maybe I should make an intentional extra effort to find women of color who are doing badass things to also make it more inclusive.

Kris Hampton  50:58

What if she was just making something to celebrate her friends?

Shelma Jun  51:03

 Yes, but that wasn't the way it was marketed. 

Kris Hampton  51:05

Right. True. True. I mean, I agree completely. And I did see a comment from her saying, I had no idea what this was going to be, you know. I just made a video and then OR wanted to use it for this, so

Shelma Jun  51:15

So yeah, that wasn't the way it was marketed and I think it's also just a reflection of like, who gets access to media? Like, who has been able to put out media? These are complex questions. These are complex issues. So it's kind of like, well, who are the people who tend to be able to reach Outdoor Research who tend to be able to get money to make films? Is it happen to be mostly white women, white men, maybe at this point? So you and I talked about this a little bit, is that it's more work to go against what's the status quo of what's been happening? 

Kris Hampton  51:58

Absolutely

Shelma Jun  51:58

The way we've been doing things, you know how it works, you kind of have an idea of how to make it successful, you know like, what the barriers are, challenges, rewards are. To work to make things more inclusive is more work, and you're going to make mistakes. So what I think about the Outdoor Research film, is there were these constructive, critical points to be made about the film. 

Kris Hampton  52:27

Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  52:28

But again, I think we need to be a little bit more generous with how harsh we are. So it's saying, hey, you tried something and that's cool and awesome. And I'm glad that you're like, putting money and resources out there to celebrate women. But these were kind of problematic points in the way that you were trying to do it. And giving Outdoor Research the opportunity to be like, wow, because of our own privilege, maybe we didn't even see that it could be taken this way. That it is maybe like, could be offensive to women that we're only being shown through the lens of men, or that there aren't any, or like the other women that are your customers, that are our community, are feeling left out because there was a video about the celebration of women and nobody looks like you.

Kris Hampton  53:20

 Right.

Shelma Jun  53:20

Like that sucks. 

Kris Hampton  53:21

Yep.

Shelma Jun  53:21

 Like, you're like, I'm part of this community. I'm a climber. I wear your clothes, I do all these things. I spend money with you. And you created this thing to celebrate women and nobody looks like me.

Kris Hampton  53:34

Yeah, just just to play devil's advocate, because I know this argument would happen. If they had, you know, if there are six women in the film, and there's a black woman, an Asian woman, a white woman, you know, and other ethnicities, or genders, whatever, that isn't necessarily representative of the current outdoor female athlete demographic. I mean, there are women of color for sure. But it's not yet to the point where they are ubiquitous. And I know that argument would happen. I don't personally see that as a valid argument, but I can understand the point, I think. So I'm just curious. Should should we always should every piece of media try to include everyone? Or Or should we do it over a longer period of time? I don't know. I'm asking as a business owner, as someone who's really fucking confused about a lot of it.

Shelma Jun  54:54

And again, I don't have all the answers. 

Kris Hampton  54:56

Sure, sure. 

Shelma Jun  54:57

And I don't know. And I'm still learning.

Kris Hampton  54:59

But I appreciate you struggling through it with me, you know.

Shelma Jun  55:01

Yeah, I mean, like, like, I mean, to be completely honest, like, I don't, I didn't notice maybe everything, I don't notice everything until I read about it and somebody else challenges me as well too, right?

Kris Hampton  55:13

 Right.

Shelma Jun  55:14

On why something might be not the best kind of way to present women or to present anybody, right? So I'm, I think I'm still learning, I'm still growing and expanding my knowledge and still trying to break down the systems that I am part of and the assumptions that I now recognize that I'm making, right? And I think that that is a challenging question. Yeah, most of the elite and higher level athletes and just

Kris Hampton  55:49

And most of the lower level athletes,

Shelma Jun  55:50

Yeah, you know, most of the lower level athletes tend to be, 

Kris Hampton  55:53

At least at this point.

Shelma Jun  55:54

Tend to be men, or tend to be white men and women. I think, though, a question we need to ask is, why is it is it that they've been given more opportunities? That it's easier for them to access that, because of your, because of the way that you've grown up where you've never been afraid to ask for things? Because you haven't seen potentially negative consequences of asking for things, that you're the one who's going to just go and ask. So people are always saying, well, these are the people reaching out to me, these are the people contacting me, and not realizing maybe someone's background has not given them the resources to know how to contact you, or to think to contact you or whatever, you know, or to know that those kinds of opportunities even exist.

Kris Hampton  56:50

Sure, I definitely do think that's part of it.

Shelma Jun  56:52

And so I think that that's part of it. So kind of recognizing that, that there are hidden gems of probably incredibly fantastic athletes, who haven't been given the same opportunities to show that prowess, or that drive or that boldness, and maybe having to work a little bit harder to find those people and also recognize, maybe they don't have as much experience, but maybe if they're given the opportunity, they would excel even beyond somebody else. 

Kris Hampton  57:22

Sure.

Shelma Jun  57:23

 They just haven't been given that opportunity before. So I think that's part of it. And I think part of it is that, like, you can say that the majority of climbers are white, but I'm Korean, I'm Asian and I'm here, right? I'm a climber, and I'm part of this community. And there are a lot of folks that are part of this community. And I don't think that the majority should inundate the media. I think, you know, we're part of this community, and we feel disconnected and left out in a lot of ways. And if you represent all of us, there should be some sort of representation of us as well. Does it have to be somebody every single time? No. If you're making a video celebrating all women, maybe, right? And kind of to like finish what I was saying before is that, like, I applaud Outdoor Research for trying, and I hope that they can take what I see is incredibly constructive criticism, to continue to, like, try to push the boundary. I don't think that they should take it as a as like, Oh my gosh, like, this was terrible. Let's never do this again. Because we're all trying to figure this out and we're all gonna make mistakes. And we have to, we have to make space for mistakes, because when you're trying new things, it's not always going to be effective. It's not always going to be right and you might not do it in the best way. But how else are we going to grow and move more towards that, you know, if people try something, and they're so harshly attacked, that they never want to try something again? I don't know if that's the most productive way for us to have these conversations. 

Kris Hampton  59:13

Yeah, but I think you do, like, if you know, your film is gonna be picked up, like you have a responsibility. Like, 

Kris Hampton  59:13

Yeah, that I think that's the problem I have with it is you know, this this filmmaker wasn't necessarily trying to make a film empowering women everywhere. She you know, she said that she was just making a film with her friends and for her friends and then OR picked it up. But what what I think where my problem happens is, when OR markets it the way they market it, and then there's this, this lashing out at the filmmaker. She can obviously make a good film, wo it would be important, I think, to empower her to think in terms of maybe I can inspire the community and include other women. And instead, if I were her reading all the comments, I would never make another film, you know.

Kris Hampton  1:00:16

If you know it.

Shelma Jun  1:00:17

 Even if it is picked up, like even if you didn't know it when you made it, like you now have this responsibility. And I think, and I hope, I, again, don't know this filmmaker, I hope that she can recognize that there are some shortcomings with the way this film was presented.

Kris Hampton  1:00:31

Sure, I hope so as well.

Shelma Jun  1:00:33

You know, that maybe it isn't the best to present women under like, as like, men perceive them. Maybe we can just be celebrated, just to be celebrated just as women and not through how men look at us, right? 

Kris Hampton  1:00:48

Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  1:00:49

And, and and to acknowledge, maybe why some women would be offended by that. Right? And to be humble enough to acknowledge, "I didn't think about this". 

Kris Hampton  1:01:04

Sure.

Shelma Jun  1:01:04

 "This is not my intention. But now I recognize why this could be offensive."

Kris Hampton  1:01:07

Sure, I hope the same thing happens.

Shelma Jun  1:01:10

 Yeah, 

Kris Hampton  1:01:10

I think my point is, a lot of people out there, like you said, are, are not being generous enough in how harsh they are, and are shutting down the people who genuinely want to be part of the conversation or understand the conversation but don't know where to start or are making mistakes.

Shelma Jun  1:01:34

I think on the other side, too, is that people who are making the mistakes and are being criticized constructively need to be more generous about opening your own being recognizing that and, and using that as an opportunity to grow. I think it's both sides.

Kris Hampton  1:01:50

Yeah, I agree. I agree completely. And that's why I'm having this conversation because of, you know, these things have all been swirling around in my head last month. And I know, I was just spending some time with Brendan and Hillary, mutual friends of ours, and I know I drove them crazy all weekend, because it's all I wanted to talk about, you know, trying to figure this shit out. Before we wrap up, and I let you go, can I give you a few examples, many of which are from my own experience, just to hear the other side of it to see what your thoughts are? 

Shelma Jun  1:02:26

I don't know if it's the other side, but you can hear my thoughts on it.

Kris Hampton  1:02:28

Well a different side. 

Shelma Jun  1:02:29

Yeah, for sure.

Kris Hampton  1:02:31

 Because they're things I may not have thought about, you know. So let's say for example, and this has happened to me quite a few times, you know, there... in the gym I used to climb in Cincinnati, there was one guy in particular that was like super creeper guy, and very blatantly hit on all the girls in the gym, you know? And Annalissa would be like, "Go save Melissa", you know, because this guy is hitting on her. So I would go over and stand next to Melissa and talk to her and get in between her and the guy and you know it, I mean, does that, is that mean not realizing my privilege? Or is it some white savior thing? Or what's happening there? Is that totally innocuous or I mean, I don't know.

Shelma Jun  1:03:25

Um, I think it totally depends on your relationship with the woman that you are going over to assist. 

Kris Hampton  1:03:34

Right.

Shelma Jun  1:03:35

And, and her and her and that person as well, right? Like maybe she is equipped to 

Kris Hampton  1:03:49

Deal with it on her own.

Shelma Jun  1:03:49

Deal with it on her own, right. And you don't need to go over there. But maybe she doesn't know how to deal with it and she's a friend of yours and you know her really well and you know that what's happening is clearly making it really uncomfortable and she can't seem to escape what's happening.

Kris Hampton  1:04:06

Right.

Shelma Jun  1:04:07

 Um, yeah, you could go over there and assess. I don't think it has to be a man. Like I would probably go over there and I have gone over there.

Kris Hampton  1:04:14

 Right.

Shelma Jun  1:04:15

 To like, assist a friend out of like, an unpleasant or uncomfortable position.

Kris Hampton  1:04:20

Yep.

Shelma Jun  1:04:21

 Um, so yeah, I mean, I think it depends on the situation and the person.

Kris Hampton  1:04:28

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I agree. And honestly, when I'm in the gym, I'm so oblivious to everything going around me going on around me. I wouldn't notice it. So if it weren't for Annalissa, I would never jump in. But I agree. And I generally try to step back and watch and see, is this person uncomfortable or not? Maybe they like having the conversation, you know, I don't know. Just because I think the guy's a creeper doesn't mean everyone else does. So, next question, and this one is something rhat didn't....it didn't necessarily hurt my feelings. I won't say that, but it but it did...I wished I had an opportunity in this case that I didn't have. And I was recording a live podcast at Climb So iLL in St. Louis and there was a question and answer after the podcast and I was asked a question, the whole panel was asked a question, from a guy in the audience about leaving the societal norm for the workforce, to start your own business, be it a climbing gym, because we had the climbing gym owners on the panel, or the training company that I have. And my first off the top of my head reaction was, "It takes balls." And that partially, and I'm not making an excuse, but the a lot of phrases...... partly because I grew up in this hip hop era that I grew up in, and I know you understand this, they become just phrases in my head and I don't realize the implication they have for everyone else. And, and I said that, and it never, I never thought twice about it. And it's a phrase I very rarely ever use. But then I got a message from a woman who was very offended by me using that term. And I wanted to respond to her, but it was an anonymous message. Just a, I won't say mean, but not a constructive message at all. But I couldn't respond to her, so I was left feeling like it was a missed opportunity to have an actual conversation. You know,

Shelma Jun  1:07:00

I don't know if you have to have enough necessarily have a conversation there.

Kris Hampton  1:07:03

Well, I think it was partly because I'm thinking about all this stuff actively and

Shelma Jun  1:07:07

I just mean, like, I don't know, if it's a conversation. I think it might just be a response. Like, you're right. That was me misspeaking and it is perpetuating these, like, you know, these social norms that you need to have masculine characteristics in order to be bold.

Kris Hampton  1:07:31

Sure.

Shelma Jun  1:07:33

And it's something that, you know, I am going to work on to not use these kinds of like, words that create negative impacts.

Kris Hampton  1:07:43

Right. Right. And just like you said, with Facebook, I feel like that a little bit with this podcast, like, I can't take it back. You know, it's out there in the world for as long as the digital era lives, that people can listen to this and hear me say it, you know, yeah, and my music is the same way. And that I've definitely said words in songs a long time ago that I would never use now. Now I know better. But, but I allow it to live out there, because it's, it's who I was then and I made mistakes then and that's okay. So it's tough to think about. We all make mistakes, and some of it lives out there forever.

Shelma Jun  1:08:25

Yeah, it, I mean, it is really scary. And that's the scary part about writing, or creating podcasts or films or anything of that sort about anything that's really heavy, because, or even not heavy, I guess, if you're just using words that then become, it becomes apparent or like inappropriate words to use. And I think in terms of things that you've done, that you no longer agree with, it's out there, and it is part of who you are. And just acknowledging that some people will mistake that for who you are now and hopefully you have an opportunity to, or you're creating enough other content and putting yourself out there that people realize that that's not who you are anymore.

Kris Hampton  1:09:17

Yeah. And you know what, my first reaction when I got that message was I have more women friends who use the words, "It takes balls" than I ever would, but I'm beginning to understand and I and for some reason, I never equated it to racially sensitive language that I've decided not to use, you know, but I it is the same thing. That just because a woman uses that phrase doesn't mean it's okay for me. It's not okay for her either, necessarily.

Shelma Jun  1:09:53

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:09:54

 So she's not immune to making the same mistakes that I am.

Shelma Jun  1:09:58

I yeah, I mean, and that's a lot of what we talked about today, right? Is that like, we're all complicit in it and we're all trying to figure it out and break things down. And yeah, I mean, absolutely. I've used words that way as well. And it's something that I completely understand where you're like, it just comes out, because it's part of my vocabulary, because it's something I've been using for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. 

Kris Hampton  1:10:26

Right.

Shelma Jun  1:10:27

 And it's something that you have to recognize and try to break in. Yeah, it might take a while. I think another word that isn't often recognized is like the word "gypped", right? Like, "Oh, I've been gypped" and then thinking, oh, yeah, actually, that's a word that came in, stemmed from the word Gypsy,  which was a derogatory term for Roma people who, and it was used to discriminate against them. And they were a nomadic group that found it really hard to find a place for themselves, you know, and

Kris Hampton  1:11:02

Kind of like climbers.

Shelma Jun  1:11:03

Yeah, kind of like climbers. And I had definitely used that word without really thinking about where the etymology of the word came from and then it was something I had to work really hard to remove out of my vocabulary, out of my vernacular. Because it is like an inappropriate term to use, and it is really offensive. And I think it's just, we're all going to, and I guess like, that comes to the main point of like, if somebody points something out to you to not see it as a personal attack on your character. 

Kris Hampton  1:11:38

Yeah. 

Shelma Jun  1:11:39

Which is really easy to do.

Kris Hampton  1:11:40

I think that's the gut reaction of most people, in most cases.

Shelma Jun  1:11:44

Yeah, I think that most people genuinely don't want to be sexist or racist, or homophobic or discriminatory or offensive, we generally try not to be that way. So when someone points the thing out to us, it's really easy for your gut reaction to be uncomfortable, right? And then to then react to being uncomfortable by kind of lashing out. And these are uncomfortable topics. Looking critically at yourself is uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable. 

Kris Hampton  1:12:26

Yeah.

Shelma Jun  1:12:26

 And I think, for some reason, we only want to be uncomfortable, like on top of a mountain, or on like, the eighth pitch or something, right? We're really, we're really okay with being uncomfortable then, but

Kris Hampton  1:12:41

Right. We're purposely putting ourselves in an uncomfortable situation there

Shelma Jun  1:12:44

But when it comes to looking at, you know, these other more complex, seemingly, to me more important situations, being uncomfortable, is really hard for us. And I think it might be just recognizing that and, like, kind of being okay with being uncomfortable and being like, Alright, this is gonna be an uncomfortable conversation we're gonna have. I'm not gonna feel really good. I'm gonna feel weird. It might make me feel a little bit bad about myself, because I realize I've been doing something making unintentionally that really affects somebody else. And then hopefully using that to move forward productively or positively.

Kris Hampton  1:13:32

Okay. I think that's good a place as any to wrap up and let you get to your, your next engagements. 

Shelma Jun  1:13:40

Yeah, thank you.

Kris Hampton  1:13:41

I appreciate you sitting down and letting me struggle through this with you because 

Shelma Jun  1:13:47

Dude I'm struggling right next to you. 

Kris Hampton  1:13:49

Yeah. You know, it's just such a complex, scary, frankly, topic.

Shelma Jun  1:13:55

It's scary to put yourself out there. But I think like my, my recommendation is like, put yourself out there, feel uncomfortable, be called out, make mistakes grow. Otherwise, like, how are you going to grow as a person? Like, yeah, you can kind of do it from observing other people making mistakes, but doing it yourself and really feeling in feeling uncomfortable, and in recognizing that it's gonna be the best way for all of us to grow, and hopefully become more aware of the situation.

Kris Hampton  1:14:30

Yeah, and this podcast was initially supposed to be about training, you know, but it's my damn podcast and I can do whatever the hell I want with it.

Shelma Jun  1:14:37

Should we do like one training question, just to like, make it like, kind of training related? 

Kris Hampton  1:14:42

No, because I think it's about progression, and 

Shelma Jun  1:14:46

We're training our minds.

Kris Hampton  1:14:47

 We are training our minds and we're trying to progress all of us in this sport, you know, and in this lifestyle, so I think it's really really important to to all of us now,not just the people trying to get their fingers stronger. So

Shelma Jun  1:15:04

I know it's probably not that it's probably not that cool if you have really strong fingers, but you're a terrible person.

Kris Hampton  1:15:09

Haha. No, not at all. 

Shelma Jun  1:15:13

Like we all prefer, like, really strong fingers. Like, pretty good person.

Kris Hampton  1:15:20

 Yeah, I don't even care about how strong your fingers are.

Shelma Jun  1:15:23

 I care because I don't want to get injured.

Kris Hampton  1:15:25

 I've seen your fingers. You're not fooling anyone.

Shelma Jun  1:15:29

Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you kind of struggling through this stuff and putting yourself out there because it is hard and it is scary. And I feel a lot of anxiety when I put things out. 

Kris Hampton  1:15:42

Yeah

Shelma Jun  1:15:43

Because I think there can be a self imposed expectation or, you know, outside expectation that you have these answers. And I think all these conversations are about trying to figure it out.

Kris Hampton  1:15:55

Yep. Cool. Thanks, Shelma. I really appreciate it.

Shelma Jun  1:15:58

 You're welcome. 

Kris Hampton  1:16:01

You know, I don't have answers. You know, I think this conversation needs to continue. And honestly, I would like to talk to Shelma again. I would like to talk to some of the other players in this. And, you know, I don't know that we'll ever have answers, but I think we can have a better understanding. And like I mentioned earlier, as a coach, as a friend, as a climbing partner, as as just a person in the gym with other people and at the crag with other people, I think we need to be understanding of, of each other's feelings and what and how we're affecting those feelings. I don't know. That's how I feel about it. Maybe you guys don't. You know, maybe I'll get hate mail, which is fine, frankly. You know, I think it's important so I'm gonna say it. So, you know, big thanks to Shelma. I appreciate that. And definitely check out Hey, Flash Foxy. Check out the Women's Climbing Festival and the Never Not Collective. Expect to see more from those guys. Or girls actually. Expect to see more from them. From us, you're going to be seeing a lot more. Like I said the Process Journals are out. Check out the website PowerCompanyClimbing.com. Order yours now. We started with a limited supply. We're gonna have to order more. But if you want in now, better jump in. We are headed on tour in just a couple of weeks. Nate and I are going to be at ROKC Climbing Gym in Kansas City. We're going to be at Climb So iLL in St. Louis, Zenith Climbing Center in Springfield, Missouri. Asana in Boise, Idaho, then we'll be down in Tampa, working with some kids down there. And then you'll see me at Horseshoe Hell. You'll see me at Rocktoberfest. We've got lots of things coming up. So reach out to your gym. See if we're coming your way, reach out to us. We hope to see all you guys out there. That will be absolutely amazing, if that were to happen. We're going to try to get to your town. Also, I just updated all the Patron rewards, new Patron levels. Exciting things happening over there if you're interested in supporting the podcast. Patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. You can find us at Powercompanyclimbing.com You can find us on the Facebooks, where you guys have turned out. Got lots of new likes this week. So thank you a ton. That means the world. You guys are always there. You can find us on the Instagrams but you cannot find us on the Twitter because as always, we don't tweet. We scream like eagles.