CONFLICTED | Kneebarring on Boulders

Does kneebarring hard boulders make you stronger? What if it IS a kneebar boulder? Is it good for training? We're conflicted. And how does Chris Sharma feel about it?

This is a bonus Board Meeting episode from our new series, CONFLICTED. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, become a Patron or Apple subscriber today!

Head over to www.patreon.com/powercompanypodcast or subscribe to Power Company + in your Apple Podcasts app!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

Hey everybody, Kris here. Today's episode is a bonus episode from our Patreon feed, which goes out to everyone on Patreon as well as our Apple+ subscribers. And you'll soon be able to get them on Spotify as well if you connect your Patreon account. Anyway, this is a new series called CONFLICTED in which Nate and I sort of ambush each other with a topic that we're a little bit conflicted on. And then we discuss and debate the pros and cons of this specific topic. And this one is on knee barring on boulders, and you'll learn more about what I mean by that in the episode, but I'm putting it here because when I posted this topic on Instagram, people freaked out. Apparently any mention of maybe not knee barring, even though there's a knee bar, or any mention of wearing knee pads, freaks people the fuck out? Who knew? Anyway, this is not about ethics. This is about performing better, improving, becoming better climbers. Nate and I have already recorded several of these conflicted episodes, the patrons have already gotten a couple discussing the pros and cons of using LED boards as well as the idea of good form. And we've got more coming. So if you enjoy this episode, definitely go check us out at patreon.com/power company podcast. Alright, let's get into it

Kris Hampton  02:13

What's up everybody. I'm your host, Kris Hampton. 

Nate Drolet  02:16

And this is Nate Drolet. 

Kris Hampton  02:18

And this is another episode of conflicted. What are we conflicted on today, Nate?

Nate Drolet  02:27

I am conflicted about using knee bars on boulders,

Kris Hampton  02:31

like in an Alex Megos type of conflicted like?

Nate Drolet  02:35

no,

Kris Hampton  02:36

"your ascent does not count." 

Nate Drolet  02:39

No, because it I mean, I guess partially because I'm very conflicted. it it's mostly about preparation. So oftentimes, I use bouldering for preparation, whether that's to become a better sport climber or to become a better boulderer. So I was talking with a friend 

Kris Hampton  02:58

Blurring the performance and training lines there. Yes, boulder to become a better boulder.

Nate Drolet  03:04

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly like, I'm not here to perform. I'm here to be able to perform better next year. But next year, I'll still be trying to perform better the year after. Yeah, it. Okay. So I was having a conversation with a friend slash someone who trusts me to keep them honest. And he was like Man, I'm... He was like, I think I'm having a really good year like I'm going to, he was like, I think my training's... He wasn't even talking about training. He was like, everything's going well. Like, I've just been climbing outside a ton. And I keep sending hard like, I've done like, 10 double digit boulders in this last like six months. And I think my, you know, so I mean, that's the most I've done ever in that amount of time. So I'm really powerful. I don't even know if I need to train power before, you know, this next season because things are going so well. And I, who have seen his Instagram, was like, how many of those boulders did you not knee bar on? And he paused and he was like uhhhh and had to count in his head. He's like one. And I was like, man, I was like you might want to train a little power. Like, that's just it. It's like, okay, like, this is why I'm conflicted, one: I think it's silly. Like if a technique is there, like if there's a good heel hook? heel hook. if there's a knee bar? Knee bar, like, you know, whatever, do that thing. But if I'm looking at it as preparation, which was how he was looking at these, like these were good sends for him, but also for him he was trying to look at the bigger picture of it. He you know, he has goals of he wants to climb harder later in the year, later next year. And he was looking at this as preparation. And I'm conflicted because I want him to use all the tools. There's no such thing as a fair fight. But on the other hand, I don't know how like for me personally, it's hard for me to say like, I'm gonna take full points for these climbs in my head of like... these are worth this many practice points, not like V points, I take them all.

Kris Hampton  05:11

Right, right.

Nate Drolet  05:12

But how valuable is this as a preparation tool? If I'm knee-barring through a lot of the moves, like a lot of power moves?

Kris Hampton  05:20

It's like if if he were training for a trip to rifle, keep knee barring. Yeah, if you're, if you're training for, you know, a trip to Wild Iris....

Nate Drolet  05:36

Stop knee-barring. Yeah, good luck. 

Kris Hampton  05:38

You want to get stronger in moving without knee bars? Don't knee bar. Yeah. But if you just want to climb the harder grade, try to find all the fucking knee bars you can find. But then be honest. Was it still a harder grade? Or did I just find a way to reduce the difficulty of this thing? I get it. It's a it's a conflict in my heart as well.

Nate Drolet  06:07

Yeah, like and I. So here's the thing. I love kneebarring, I've done a lot of it. I think. I think I'm moderately decent at it. And I think it's a skill more than most people appreciate. A lot of people think...

Kris Hampton  06:19

absolutely. Like, people think you just drop your knee in. And that's the knee bar.

Nate Drolet  06:23

And if it doesn't work it's your shin-dex is wrong, I if you've ever watched a knee bar wizard, it's a skill. Yeah, like the knee bar wizards rarely use the phrase "shin-dex" like, that is? I don't know, that's the verbiage of the unpracticed.

Kris Hampton  06:42

"the verbiage of the unpracticed". I like that.

Nate Drolet  06:45

It Yeah, so kneebarring is a skill and there's a ton to it. So I think it's under appreciated. A lot of people see it. 

Kris Hampton  06:53

Wait we never set our sides. So yeah. Are you are you against or for? Where are you standing today?

Nate Drolet  07:02

I'm against I guess. I don't like being against it.

Kris Hampton  07:14

all the sides. I am....I'm for it. 

Nate Drolet  07:24

Okay. I like that. I like that for you. Yeah, so wait, wait, why are you for it?

Kris Hampton  07:38

I am for it because I think knee bars are showing up more and more often in more and more places. And it's such a valuable skill to learn that people have not given enough credit. But I think the learning how to kneebar better outweighs the, you might not get a training benefit from this, because in most places you're going to end up, I think knee bars are are the new beta, like knee bars, toe hooks above your head, these new techniques that people are using, are just gonna get found more and more, and it's totally fucking up our grading system. You know, not that it was ever a good grading system to begin with. But it's totally flipped it on its head. And I think we're gonna have to go back and just be okay with changing a lot of the grades to reflect all these better methods. And then, if you're the person who climbed on the boulders with the knee bars, you're set and ready to go. That's my optimistic view. Okay. I don't, I rarely have an optimistic view to share. But that's my optimistic view today.

Nate Drolet  08:59

And I, I can see where you're coming from with this. Like, totally, like, that's just it. I hear. So I'm like, Yeah, this this makes sense. I, my pessimistic view, comes kind of from comes from the same idea that I'll work with clients now and then who, let's say are fairly mobile and have really strong legs, and they can heel hook through anything. Yeah. And you work with them. And it's like, man, man, they can find a heel hook on literally anything and nothing. It's crazy. But at a certain point, it's like, okay, you have climbed V11 that you can just crush with your legs. Amazing. But if we take your heels away, you struggle on V7. Like, this is a gap. And I think knee barring is a more insidious version of this.

Kris Hampton  09:57

"Insidious", I like it. Kneebarring is insidious.

Nate Drolet  10:01

You, I don't know. I think it's just you convince yourself more, like because a heel hook, everyone else is doing it like the same way, but you are heel hooking, more often is what I'll see. Like, these are people who can heel hook on tiny cramps. But with a knee bar, it's like, oh, well, you know, the knee bar is the new method. And that's how everyone does it. And everyone's still calls it this grade. And so, you know, yeah, it's still hard and V10 is hard. Therefore, like, I look at you know, V10 is hard, therefore, I am strong. Boom. And I don't know, it, I just like for myself, and I like, like I said, I like kneebarring, actually really enjoy it. Like, I enjoy it on sport climbing, especially for me. A perfect sport climb is hard boulders where I get to like a knee bar clip, shake each hand and then go to another hard boulder. Like, I don't want to have a knee bar through the boulders. Like "Supercharger" is a wonderful example. It's just steep climbing, fun power climbing, with a knee bar at every bolt that you get to like shake on power up for the next boulder. Perfect.

Kris Hampton  11:02

So your favorite sport climbs are boulders.

Nate Drolet  11:04

Basically, yes, boulders separated by knee bars, but no knee barring for the boulders.

Kris Hampton  11:09

you essentially just get to walk to the next boulder and climb it. 

Nate Drolet  11:12

Yeah, it's great. I don't even have to drag my pad.

Kris Hampton  11:15

I like it. I like it.

Nate Drolet  11:18

And I like kneebar boulders, they're fun. I think it's a unique style of movement. But I definitely classify them different. Like, and maybe this is just because I've done enough and I feel confident with knee barring. They want to do a hard knee bar boulder like, it feels more like a circus trick. To me it feels more like a run and jump boulder in the gym than if I climb like a true power problem.

Kris Hampton  11:44

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely get the conflicted-ness. I don't know if that's a word here. Because I'm like, as I'm getting older, you know, I'll be 49 this year. I'm like, I don't want to fall into the like the wall crawler camp?

Nate Drolet  12:04

I was about to say, start moving to Maple. 

Kris Hampton  12:06

Exactly... Well, I mean, I'm going to Maple this summer. So...

Nate Drolet  12:09

Oh, man, you are getting old.

Kris Hampton  12:11

testing it out. I don't want to fall into the wall crawler camp of every hard thing I do revolves around knee bars. And ideally, it's a route where no one has exploited the insidiousness of the knee bar. And I can be the first so that it can look like I did this 14a even though I just turned it into a 13a. 

Nate Drolet  12:39

nice. 

Kris Hampton  12:42

I don't want to fall into that trap. So I've spent a lot of time not using knee bars. Because I want to be able to pull when pulling is required. Because I've seen enough of the like knee bar experts totally fail on things where they had to pull that were way below the grade that they supposedly climb here. And that has definitely colored my views on it. At the same time though, I do think knee barring is a skill and there are some people who can kneebar in ways that I cannot.

Nate Drolet  13:22

Totally. Yeah, I...

Kris Hampton  13:26

and I like collecting them all. Yeah, on all the skills.

Nate Drolet  13:30

You know, I mean, I think knee barring is important. It's a great skill, you need to be able to Kneebar. it's, you know, just yesterday I was in the gym, and there was what I would consider a very simple, like, knee bar boulder that had like one of the harder tags on it. And I was like, oh clearly if you know how to knee bar... and there was a hard section up at the very top of this, but like down low, you just crawled through three back-to-back knee bars. And I was like this honestly looks like it's V5 knee crawling if you know what you're doing. And there were a lot of strong climbers who were basically opted... Like they tried the knee bar twice, like the knee bars twice and they just turned it into a compression problem that was like V9, V9 pulling. I was like okay, well, kneebarring would be much better for them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. To me, it's it's so easy to think you're, I mean, it's that same thing like, be like okay, like, I'm gonna go on this trip and I'm going to try and climb a bunch of hard boulders. And I think this sandbags people who have the ability to travel more, because if you only live in one area, or like if you never travel, you can only kneebar so much because there are only so many problems. Unless it's Hueco then apparently you can kneebar everyday.

Kris Hampton  14:50

Yeah, everything has knee bars that have not yet been exploited.

Nate Drolet  14:54

Yes. But the more... I think this is actually a really funny trap. Maybe we should talk about this at some point, of traveling. One of the biggest pieces of advice that's given to people for how to get better at climbing is travel to new areas. Yep. But some people, like the people who are really good, like, you'll see people who it's like, oh, they can just put up, you know, high numbers, month after month, who travel a ton. But then when you actually look at what they're doing, it's like, Oh, you just found the same iteration of boulders at every area, you know? let's say it's, could be knee bars, could be steep crimping, or whatever. It's like, Oh, you just did the Fontainebleau version of the thing you did in Rocklands, of the thing you did in Switzerland, of the thing you did in Colorado... like you're doing the same climb, essentially, you just keep finding it. and like they go and they just hunt out, you know, the very niche style that they are currently in good shape for, which if that's fun, do it. That's awesome. But I, for me for my long term view, you know, let's say you do six V11's that way, to me, I don't count those in the same way. If they're if it's like, oh, I went and found, you know, six problems that I could just happen to knee bar crawl through all the cruxes. It's like, you know, looks good on paper. scoreboard's looking great.

Kris Hampton  16:17

Why? Why just boulders? Why not routes as well? 

Nate Drolet  16:22

Oh, because I haven't been sport climbing. I keep saying I'm gonna get back to sport climbing. But I've been avoiding, I've been dodging that bullet for seven years.

Kris Hampton  16:29

So in sport climbing you're like, yeah, if I use a knee bar, that's 100% valid to use that fucking knee bar.

Nate Drolet  16:36

I need them! No, it's a good question. When I was very serious about sport climbing, like the last time when I was, like it was, "this is what I do," was actually the first time I tried Supercharger. And I immediately abandoned it. Because there were too many, too many knee bars. And actually, you know, when I went to Rodellar, and I had a really bad time. I mean, look, it's beautiful. It's fun, most wonderful hangout ever. And I found plenty of things that I could just climb with my hands and my feet. But it was a lot of knee bar crawling. For me, I was like, This is not a style I enjoy, I don't want to go climb like 100 foot knee bar crawls. And then I went from there to Ceuse and I was like, This is it. Like, I don't know, if I kneebarred once in Ceuse and it was great. Like just climbing with my hands and feet. If I did knee bar, it was probably for a rest. And I was psyched on it because you know, it'd be like, the one on a route.

Kris Hampton  17:31

It's definitely like, I have in my, in my being a like picture of what climbing is. And and that climber in the picture does not have on two kneepads duct taped to their thighs. Yeah, you know, it's not that I want to invalidate that as climbing, it is. It's a subset. It's a specific type. It's a unique skill. Totally. I just want to be the person, like I said, who collects them all, I want all the skills. So I want to be pretty good at knee barring. But I don't want that to become my identity. Because at least then in my head, I no longer match the picture of what climbing looks like.

Nate Drolet  18:18

Yes. And I mean, that's one of the reasons I'm conflicted on this, is like I can easily be like, This is not what I want. But I also recognize that I have a similar mental model when I think of what hard climbing looks like, when I think of a hard sport climber, a hard boulderer, I'm not wearing knee pads. But I also know that this is a stylistic thing. You know, it's no different than me saying I like hip hop. And I don't like country music. Like these are not facts that I get that like I leverage over people. It's just an opinion. Like, it's the same thing with when I'm like, Ah, I, to me, it doesn't feel like knee barring is a valid form of training. I have to recognize that some of that is my own opinion. It's my own style preference. And some of its fact, let's be honest.

Kris Hampton  19:13

It's interesting. You know, like I mentioned before, I do feel like we're approaching a time when you know, the newer boulders being put up, Dave Graham just alluded to it in a post the other day where he's like, the the knee bar skills and the climbing with my feet above my head skills that I've been cultivating all these years, you know, now he's applying them to these old projects that no one was ever able to get done. And so now there's no longer the "well, the first ascentionist didn't use a knee pad and the first ascensionist didn't do that beta with your feet above your head." you know ,excuse. which I think is bullshit anyway. But that excuse is no longer going to exist on a lot of new age modern climbs. So if you want to be the Alex Megos, who's like, well, first ascentionist did it this way, but in a thick German accent, then you're going to have to know the history of all the climbs pretty soon because some first ascents are being done that way. You know, a lot of the modern boulders are being done that way. So it's going to be a valuable skill for you to have eventually. I have a client right now who's planning a trip to, to Norway to climb in.... why did I just blank on that big cave? Flatanger? And, and I've told him like, you don't, you don't spend much time knee barring, but you should bring some knee pads into the gym. If you can stand how stupid you're going to look. Strap the knee pads on and try to find knee bars in the gym. 

Nate Drolet  20:55

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  20:55

On boulders on sport climbs. Don't listen to what Nate says. Yeah, I've got him doing that right now.

Nate Drolet  21:04

Even now, I'm like, Well, duh, he absolutely should, like does he know that the length of your elbow to your middle finger is roughly the mid length of your kneebar range? Because that's huge. You find knee bars super fast. Yeah, like, I see that. I see that. You know, Megos is a good person to bring up on this, because I talked about heel hooking earlier. You know, he talked about how early on in his climbing someone he trained with was like, Oh, don't heel hook. It's bad for training. So he didn't heel hook for like 10 years, like ever. And now he's like, Well, turns out I'm terrible at heel hooking. And it's a real weakness. And it stops me from doing harder climbs. It's like, oh, yeah, that's it. That's not what I want people to be like, with knee barring or heel hooking or anything. like I mean, I remember that as well. Like, I used to be terrible at heel hooks. Because of that same reason. People would say, Oh, don't heel hook in training. It makes it too easy. We need to make it harder. It's like no, just do harder boulders to make them harder.

Kris Hampton  22:11

It's a skill like any other. Chris Linder wants told me that when he first put on a pair of aggressive climbing shoes, he climbed one thing and immediately took them off. And didn't wear them again for years because it was cheating.

Nate Drolet  22:28

Amazing.

Kris Hampton  22:28

This is cheating. This is basically a knee pad. You know, it's the analog to today's knee pads.

Nate Drolet  22:35

Funny. And then. So in here's the thing, like, I hear that and like I see people who train in flat, bad shoes objectively like shoes not designed this century.

Kris Hampton  22:47

Right. leather soled,

Nate Drolet  22:52

I'm looking at all you moccasym wearers. Like I get it. It was a big deal when it came out. It was the first asymmetrical shoe ever made. Which is why it's called the mocc-a-sym, literally.

Kris Hampton  23:05

I never knew that. I never paid attention to that. I always thought they were stupid.

Nate Drolet  23:10

I saw a magazine from the 90s that that was like what they were hyping up. They were like, it's asymmetrical. I was like, Whoa, that's sick. I've owned a pair of these like, yeah. But I see people wearing those. And they're like, oh, this makes training harder. I'm like, Are you going to perform in flat shoes, because you climb differently in them. Also, your feet cut a lot doing this, Is that how much you want your feet to cut normally? And like that's bad training. Like, I just think that's objectively a terrible idea. And so I can also say, like, I don't know, don't avoid knee bars, but don't go chasing them. I don't know.

Kris Hampton  23:47

Yeah, you're conflicted.

Nate Drolet  23:48

I, 100%. Like, and that's just, say like, if today, I went out bouldering and I was like, Ooh, this is a great boulder. Oh, there's the knee, knee bar here. I'm going to put a pad on it. I'm going to use it. Yeah, I just don't know how I'm gonna feel about it.

Kris Hampton  24:01

And when here, here's another thing just to throw in the pot, when you've been working on a thing. And you're finding it difficult. And then you discover this knee scum that you're like, if I put a pad on, I could do this. You're gonna put the pad on. You're gonna do it. Yeah, but you're gonna feel a way about it. 

Nate Drolet  24:25

Oh, I'm gonna feel a way. 

Kris Hampton  24:29

And I have done this, there is a there's a V11 I think it's called? that I find the move really hard unless I put a knee pad on. Crush the side of my leg into the wall, which isn't really a knee bar. You know? It's this like leg scum. But I put sticky rubber on my leg for it. And then I can do the move. It's still a very hard move. I don't know if it's V11 Because I don't know what V11 is, but I do feel conflicted about it. Yeah. Yeah, if I were a bigger person, I would go back and do it without it, is how I feel.

Nate Drolet  25:10

"is how I feel." Now my action... 

Kris Hampton  25:12

But I'm also not going to judge anybody who doesn't feel that way.

Nate Drolet  25:15

Yeah. Yeah, I don't. I've had times where this has happened, where I'm like doing a boulder and I'm psyched and I'm like, Oh, this is cool. Like really powerful. I love. I love the way that I'm having to adapt to this climb, maybe even I put in sessions. And then you find like a knee bar, like a heel toe cam, and you can just do it the boulder. it's it's upsetting. And it's like, oh, I just like lost. And yes, I could go do it still the way I wanted to. But in very rare cases have I, I have gone back and done that. But it's not. I don't know it's not the same.

Kris Hampton  25:54

Here's the litmus test. If you send a thing with a knee pad on where that's not the the accepted beta, and then a photographer walks up. And he's like, could you pose on that move down there? This is going to look great on the cover of this magazine. Are you going to take the knee pad off? 

Nate Drolet  26:18

Fuck Yeah, you are. oooh, get this: Matt Fultz did an FA here at little cottonwood. I think maybe two three years ago, and he edited out the knee bar in his video. 

Kris Hampton  26:33

Wow, really took it out of the video?

Nate Drolet  26:35

And it's funny because someone commented they were like, well, why did you wear a knee pad? I didn't see you knee bar. He was like, Oh, that was the first thing I did when I got this on my computer is I edited out the knee bar.

Kris Hampton  26:44

Could I could I also edit out the knee pad for my whole uncut footage?

Nate Drolet  26:51

But I was just like, I was like, that's I mean, you're wearing a knee pad. But how hilarious. I think this may have been when he posted it to Instagram. I don't, he may have had it on YouTube. I'll have to check. But on Instagram. This might have been when there was like a one minute limit. So you had, he had to make sure it was trimmed. But he was like yeah, first thing I did was I trimmed out the knee pad or the knee bar. 

Kris Hampton  27:13

Yeah, that's amazing. 

Nate Drolet  27:14

Earlier. and this was the first ascent too so that's what's funny about it because you talked about the historical idea of first...

Kris Hampton  27:20

"the first ascsentionist didn't use a knee bar." He weren't he were an eBay and use but

Nate Drolet  27:24

he did not use it. Yeah. It which makes, which I appreciate because that means Matt Fultz is also conflicted about this. Like he is willing to wear a knee pad and do a knee bar to do this boulder but does not want to be seen using a knee bar.

Kris Hampton  27:42

When I was recently, when I was recently coming up with a reason to post JStar's rewind episode and I came across that fact that he had done you know all his 15b's within like two weeks of each other, super cool fact, and two on the same date, different years apart. I was reading his comments on his 8a. he has somewhat recently started saying "used the knee bar for this move." "No kneepads," you know, like qualifying what, what gear and what techniques he's using. And that seems so funny to me. It would be like someone you know, like maybe I start writing comments about the boulders I do and I'm like, used a pinky or downturned shoes, you know, half crimped on this hold. You know, that's silly. It's just another technique, but for some reason we feel like it's lesser and we have to qualify it.

Nate Drolet  28:45

JStar is a great example of this because, you know, he went through this spree in rifle of just climbing everything in wild, fast, Jonathan Siegrist style fashion, like a way that he does, you know, unlike anyone else, but he did a lot of that in same thing up at Potosi in the clear light cave without kneepads, knee bars and kneepads. And I think a lot of that was, he was like, I want to get better at steep power climbing on rope. And...

Kris Hampton  29:16

Which was a great choice for him. 

Nate Drolet  29:17

Yes. And so he viewed these even though it's, you know, 5.13+ and 5.14 rock climbing and 5.14+ climbing. He saw that as preparation for the future. And so he did a lot of these things without knee bars and without kneepads. And I would, I'd love to hear his opinion on this what his take is like, how much of that was for preparation. like did he feel when he did start knee barring, you know, because he did routes like Tom Foolery, which are wildly cryptic kneebar climbs, like when he did them, did he feel prepared? Like was this like, Oh, I'm good enough at knee bars. Or like, I would rather make 14a a little harder to to improve at this style I'm bad at and now like, you know, he went out and did Kinder Cakes like pretty quick and efficiently and really well, a route that maybe 10 years ago would have, 10 years ago would have stolen his lunch money. Like a steep route like that. I'd love to hear his thoughts on this.

Kris Hampton  30:17

Here's a question. Have you ever seen a photo of Chris Sharma with a knee pad on?

Nate Drolet  30:24

Oh, I don't know.

Kris Hampton  30:31

I don't think I have.

Nate Drolet  30:33

I don't know that I have either.

Kris Hampton  30:36

Does that make you judge it even more? Thinking about that?

Nate Drolet  30:43

I think Dave Graham wears them enough for the both of them.

Kris Hampton  30:46

That's a good point. Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen a picture of David Graham without a knee pad on. he's at parties with knee pads. 

Nate Drolet  30:54

Truth. I remember, it's funny. He he hurt his knee in Hueco many years ago. And so he had to have like a compression sleeve on that knee. And in a video he's he has a knee pad on his other leg. He's like, it just feels wrong to not have them evened out.

Kris Hampton  31:13

Love it. Okay, stop the presses. After this conversation, I punched my question into the All Knowing Googler and Chris Sharma has this to say about knee pads:

Chris Sharma  31:29

I'm not a big fan of knee pads. I mean, the thing is knee bars, knee pads have been in the US especially because places like rifle and jailhouse, people were using them in the early 90s. So it's not anything new. Jernej Kruder actually said something that I thought was pretty interesting, which was that in the end, to each their own, you can claim something however you want to do it. What it is, if a route was put up without any pads, and you do it with that, maybe it's worth mentioning that. But beyond that, like, personally, I don't feel comfortable with these things strapped on my legs. Like I don't like the feeling.

Kris Hampton  32:05

good politically correct answer, Chris. But like you said, to each their own, and it's okay to be wrong. Back to the show.

Nate Drolet  32:14

Yeah. So I don't know, I'm conflicted. I think knee bars are great. Everyone should be able to do them, should be skilled at them.  I do knee bar boulders because I think it's really fun. It's unique, teaches you a lot about body position. And I just don't know how I feel, though, about how they prepare me, how they prepare people. Yeah, like or also, you know, like, there are times where it's like, oh, there's a V11. Now there's an knee bar and we call it V10. It's like, Was that enough of a change? Like, I can think of climbs where it's like, oh, this was V12, and now there's a knee bar, people call it V11 or V10. And I'm like, I don't know if it's even V10. may not even be V9.

Kris Hampton  32:54

Well, yeah, absolutely. 

Nate Drolet  32:56

But I'm not trying to be that guy.

Kris Hampton  32:58

Somebody's gonna have to be that person. It's a real thing. Yeah,

Nate Drolet  33:02

man, like, a couple years ago, its funny, someone like did a route and they were like, "I'm just really upset. A lot of people have like been saying that this route, you know, I did, this, it's 13b. I think it's 13b and a lot of people have been saying it's 13a with knee bars. You know, like and that just seems rude." And then I went on to 8a and I realized I logged it as 12d, like five years before that.

Kris Hampton  33:22

What was the route?

Nate Drolet  33:23

Um, I'm not gonna out myself on that because I also have, I use an alias on 8a.

Kris Hampton  33:30

But I think "Dirty Smelly Hippie" is a really interesting example like that, like...

Nate Drolet  33:36

okay, so it was dirty smelly hippie.

Kris Hampton  33:39

I personally, I think it was originally called 12d. 

Nate Drolet  33:42

It was. 

Kris Hampton  33:44

I think David Hume called it 12d. 

Nate Drolet  33:45

I learned this.

Kris Hampton  33:46

Then it at some point got upgraded to 13b. I don't know how, maybe Ray's guidebook. I don't know how, maybe it was before Ray's guidebook. But when I did it, I did it without knee bars, second try, and thought it was 12d. I think I still took 13b. I would suspect I did. 

Nate Drolet  34:08

points.

Kris Hampton  34:09

because I know my character. But then I reclimbed it with the knee bars that have been found. And it felt even easier. But I was also a stronger climber at that time, so I have no idea if it felt easier because I was stronger. felt easier because of the knee bars. I don't fucking know. But I would absolutely climb it with knee bars next time. Yeah, yeah, cuz I've done it without them.

Nate Drolet  34:35

Yeah. No, I mean, I went up with double kneepads. And I think maybe I was just really in tune with kneebarring at the time, but I could take my hands off for every single move of the crux. Like I was like, oh, like, it just fit me nicely. And I was like, 12d even seems like a gimme. But then later on, like, you know, people were very upset over this and I get it because it's also a common first 13b and Like I when I called it 12d I wasn't like oh, you know fuck you to everyone, like no I was just like, oh, this is what this feels like. And also I've climbed enough 5.13 that I'm fine losing one. like yeah like I don't, my ego doesn't need another 5.13. Or didn't then. Right now? Maybe different...

Kris Hampton  35:20

Yeah, I'm on a chase for a certain number of 5.13's at this point so I'm not stripping anything off of my list. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, conflicted. Like my dude Nalle Simon says, 

Nalle Simon  35:36

we don't tweet we scream like eagles.